Vacuvin - yes or no?

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Vacuvin - yes or no?

Postby Rujir » Mon Feb 15, 2010 1:37 pm

Hello guys, I've got a problem. Well, actually I've got a problem since I have looked here. Until then I was just fine. :lol:

The point is that I'm planning to buy a few Vacuvin jars to store my beans. In Slovakia there is an awful situation with freshly roasted coffee and therefore I'm forced to store coffee for at least two weeks - one month is more realistic.

I searched the Internet and found Vacuvin jars and was amazed by the idea of storing the beans in vacuum. However than I looked here (like I always do) and found out that many of you do not recommend vacuum jars because they might suck out the flavor and that's, of course, something I really don't want to.

So the question is clear - buy Vacuvin or not?
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RE: Vacuvin - yes or no?

Postby darrensandford » Mon Feb 15, 2010 3:05 pm

If you need to make beans last more than two weeks, you are better off freezing smaller batches of beans in sealed containers; pulling them out and letting them get up to room temperature before opening and using.

Vacuvin will remove the oxygen, but I don't think it will prevent the coffee becoming stale due to outgassing etc.
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RE: Vacuvin - yes or no?

Postby bruceb » Mon Feb 15, 2010 6:46 pm

Vacuum packing of coffee is not an advantage and should be avoided. You don't only remove the air you remove aromatic constituents from the coffee. I am not convinced that freezing is an advantage, but a tightly closed container, cool and most importantly - dark will probably serve you as well as possible.
Three Francesconi (CMA) espresso machines - Rossi, San Marco, LaCimbali, Faema and 2 Mazzer Major grinders- CoffeeTech Maggionlino, Hottop, Alpenröst and HW Precision roasters.
I decided I needed a bit of a change so I roasted some Monsooned Malabar. That was a change!
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Postby daveyb » Tue Feb 16, 2010 1:22 pm

I disagree about vacuuming. If you follow the correct proceedures, then beans stored under vaccuum can last a fair length. Given the fact that all beans de gass to a certain extent, the secret is only to empty the gas out as the bag fills up....to explain:
beans vary, but typically a monssoned malabar I roasted last week is as follows. Once cooled down, bag and vaccuum. The back will inflate again over a few hours. Empty it, and again and again over the next couple of days. Once you reach the stage where no gas is being produced, seal the bag like a brick. It is important not to expose the beans to air once they go into the bag as some believe that it is this which starts the degassing again. When the beans are in brick sealed stage, there is no more gas produced and if the bag is left sealed until needed, theu will store. Longest I have managed a decent fresh taste is 7 weeks.
This way, nothing goes in and nothing is sucked out............inertia.
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Postby Rujir » Tue Feb 16, 2010 1:35 pm

So now I'm completely confused. :lol: Please, imagine my situation. I have to order the beans abroad (roasters in Slovakia are not very good). Right now I'm planning to go in coffee subscription from Square Mile Roasters nad Has Bean Coffee. It means that even if they send the beans roasted freshly, I dont get them until they are at least three to four days after roasting. Therefore I'm not worried about degassing very much.

So should I vacuum in my case or not?
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Postby bruceb » Tue Feb 16, 2010 1:37 pm

My comments are based on my own personal experience and the taste of the beans. None of the vacuum tricks nor freezing have been satisfactory in my own olfactory experience. I think one has to experiment and find out what is right for oneself.

Since I have begun drinking fresh coffee (never older than 14 days) I have never had a satisfactory cup from any beans older than twice that age, regardless of how they were stored.
Three Francesconi (CMA) espresso machines - Rossi, San Marco, LaCimbali, Faema and 2 Mazzer Major grinders- CoffeeTech Maggionlino, Hottop, Alpenröst and HW Precision roasters.
I decided I needed a bit of a change so I roasted some Monsooned Malabar. That was a change!
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Postby bruceb » Tue Feb 16, 2010 1:42 pm

Rujir wrote:So now I'm completely confused. :lol: Please, imagine my situation. I have to order the beans abroad (roasters in Slovakia are not very good). Right now I'm planning to go in coffee subscription from Square Mile Roasters nad Has Bean Coffee. It means that even if they send the beans roasted freshly, I dont get them until they are at least three to four days after roasting. Therefore I'm not worried about degassing very much.

So should I vacuum in my case or not?


Rather than put the burden of proof on any of us :lol: why not buy one of the vacuum things and try it on a batch of beans, keeping a batch back and just storing it in a tight container in a dark, cool place. Then get back to us in 3 weeks when you've tried both.

Coffee is not just science, but it is experimental and your own taste is really all that counts.

My grandfather came from Slovakia, so I guess I should apologise for the bad coffee. :oops: :lol:
Three Francesconi (CMA) espresso machines - Rossi, San Marco, LaCimbali, Faema and 2 Mazzer Major grinders- CoffeeTech Maggionlino, Hottop, Alpenröst and HW Precision roasters.
I decided I needed a bit of a change so I roasted some Monsooned Malabar. That was a change!
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Postby daveyb » Tue Feb 16, 2010 1:54 pm

It is always difficult to advise people as you just end up telling tyhem what you do yourself.
I think two of the important things are:
do you drink milk based
or espresso?
Milk based does let you get awa with murder when compared to the delicate notes a true espresso drinker casn pick up on. personally, my taste buds are not that good and I prefer milk based coffee. Having said that, I cannot argue that vaccuum stored coffee tastes any better (I would be surpised if it did) but you have a problem, so it WILL help with that.
I am unsure as to the style of vaccuum machine but here is a link to the one I use
http://www.bellabarista.co.uk/coffeeacc ... 355&cat=31
I am sure you will find a similar one closer to home!
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Postby bruceb » Tue Feb 16, 2010 2:59 pm

For me it is not subtle flavours that get lost. My taste is no where near refined enough to detect them. It is the rancid/stale flavour of coffee oils that develop, completely independent of storage method. The oils autopolymerise whether they are subject to oxygen or heat, although both of those factors accelerate the process. I really hope Rujir makes the test I suggested above and lets us know what he thinks. Again, however, it is a very subjective and personal matter, I believe.

I do have another suggestion, however, Rujir. Our very own TMC member, Walter, is in Austria, much closer to Slovakia than London or Stafford. Why don't you PM him and perhaps he can work out something for you that would be more reasonable in regard to shipping. His website is here.
Last edited by bruceb on Tue Feb 16, 2010 4:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Three Francesconi (CMA) espresso machines - Rossi, San Marco, LaCimbali, Faema and 2 Mazzer Major grinders- CoffeeTech Maggionlino, Hottop, Alpenröst and HW Precision roasters.
I decided I needed a bit of a change so I roasted some Monsooned Malabar. That was a change!
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Postby Rujir » Tue Feb 16, 2010 3:10 pm

Many thanks, guys! You're a big help. It looks that I really should just buy some Vacuvin and try it on my own. And special thanks for the tip on Walter. I will definitely write him. I'm a newbie here, so I don't know the members so well... Thanks again!
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Postby daveyb » Tue Feb 16, 2010 6:04 pm

On the note iof rancid oils; if you find this a problem and affecting taste, then do what I do........wash the bags with warm soapy water!
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Postby bruceb » Tue Feb 16, 2010 6:24 pm

daveyb wrote:On the note iof rancid oils; if you find this a problem and affecting taste, then do what I do........wash the bags with warm soapy water!


:oops: :oops: I am ashamed to admit that I would never reuse a bag. :oops:
Three Francesconi (CMA) espresso machines - Rossi, San Marco, LaCimbali, Faema and 2 Mazzer Major grinders- CoffeeTech Maggionlino, Hottop, Alpenröst and HW Precision roasters.
I decided I needed a bit of a change so I roasted some Monsooned Malabar. That was a change!
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Postby daveyb » Tue Feb 16, 2010 7:13 pm

There is no reason in the world not to re-use a proper vaccuumm bag. I am not talking about the silver foil valve bags but proper valved catering quality plastic bags which cost innexcess of £1 each
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Postby bruceb » Tue Feb 16, 2010 8:19 pm

Aha! I have never had any of those. Since I really don't store roasted coffee at all I have never needed anything like that. I have never seen any reason to use valved bags anyway. I put my freshly roasted beans in normal "Ziplock" bags shortly after roasting, roll the bag up to remove excess air, zip them and let them sit in a dark cabinet for a 2-3 days, whereby the bags develop a bit of CO2, which doesn't bother me in the least. From there I dump the beans into the grinder and use them within the next week. Of course, this doesn't help our friend Rujir at all.

Over the last 15 years I have tried all kinds of storage methods including vacuum, pressure, freezing, cooling and so on. As I mentioned above, the only factors I have found that change the process are negative ones that make aging quicker, ie. heat and light. I didn't want to roast my own, but I was (and still am) convinced that coffee is not a storage commodity and if I can't drink it fresh (<14 days after roasting) I don't need to drink it at all. I am, however, in the fortunate situation of having a couple of good roasters and sources of green beans, I enjoy roasting and enjoy my own roasts. For that I'm quite thankful. :D
Three Francesconi (CMA) espresso machines - Rossi, San Marco, LaCimbali, Faema and 2 Mazzer Major grinders- CoffeeTech Maggionlino, Hottop, Alpenröst and HW Precision roasters.
I decided I needed a bit of a change so I roasted some Monsooned Malabar. That was a change!
Image
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Postby Rujir » Tue Feb 16, 2010 9:23 pm

:lol: I hope, that in 20 years I will be in the same situation as you are. :) But now... :roll: I am aware of the fact, that it is not possible to preserve the freshness of coffee. All I need to know is, if the vacuum harms the coffee or not. It it really sucks out the fragnance of coffee then it definitely should not be used. But I think that I have to find out on my own.

Still many thanks! BTW My grand-grand-gradfather came from Germany. Right now I wish he had stayed there. :lol: :lol: :lol:
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