dSLR shopping

[dsc]

Hi everyone,

I know there are a lot of photography enthusiasts here and so I decided to ask this question, maybe someone will help me a bit.

For a while now I've been thinking of buying a dSLR and I was pretty much sure it's going to be a Nikon D80. Together with a kit lens I can get one for around 600GBP here in the UK which, comparing to prices on ebay (except for items from US and Asia) and in Poland is not so bad. Now a week or so ago Nikon announced it's new D90, which is basically a pimped-up D80 and I decided to get this one instead. It's around 150GBP more than the D80, but has a few nice elements, which, at least in my opinion, make it worth going for. Because I have raised my price limit to around 750GBP, I'm now in a position in which I can also get (or almost get) a Canon 40d. So the choice is pretty much down to those two cameras, the Nikon D90 and the Canon 40d. I've been comparing them for a couple of days now and most people on dSLR forums say that they are very similar and it's down to whichever camera feels better in your hand. But I have also read that the Canon 40d is a class higher than the Nikon d90, because previously it was a class higher than the D80 and the D90 is it's replacement. I'm still not sure where that 'class higher' is visible, because according to the specs both cameras are very similar.

So any of you coffee/photo enthusiasts there can share some thoughts on the subject?

Regards,
dsc.

[JonS]

The best advice I can give, is to go somewhere to try the cameras you're thinking of. Even if you don't actually take any pictures. Canon and Nikon cameras do feel quite different in use and there are potential differences in body construction. I'm a big fan of what Nikon have done, but I'm a Canon user, mainly because when I bought my first DSLR (a 20d) it felt so much better in my hands than the Nikon D70 which was the competing model at the time. This choice was made despite having a second hand Nikon DSLR and a couple of second hand Nikon lenses already, and actually going to Jessops with the intention of buying the D70.

I doubt you'll be disappointed with either model, especially as a first DSLR, but, if actually having a go with them doesn't make your mind up one way or another, I would suggest identifying what type of photography interests you most, and seeing how the camera features, and lenses and accessories from the manufacturers best fit with those needs, now and as far in the future as you can see. Once you have some lenses and accessories, you're unlikely to want to switch brands in a hurry. If you're still undecided, but actually only intend to use the kit lenses, then maybe you could base your decision on which kit lens offers the best image quality, as this will ultimately make the biggest difference to your images. Though the kit lenses tend to be pretty poor optically, when compared with the retail lenses.

Oh, and whilst the D90 is very new, the 40D is an older model now. This might blur the class distinctions somewhat, as the 40D used to be reviewed against the Nikon D300 (and generally lost slightly on performance, but it was loads cheaper) You'll note the higher burst rate of the 40D and 14 bit image processing when compared with the D90, which may or may not matter to you. The higher pixel count of the D90 is unlikely to yield a big difference in image quality by itself. Given that the 40D used to be in the same class as the D300, the comparisons that I read at the time, and based on my own past experiences of D70 vs 20D I would suggest that the 40D does indeed reside in the higher overall class when considering straight photography features. Somewhat wasted on a cheap kit lens, though.

Have I been any help ?

Jon

[dsc]

Hi Jon,

you were helpful as always:)

I don't really care about the additional 2mpix on the Nikon D90, or it's ability to shoot HD videos (although I would probably use it quite a lot if I had it). I'm mainly focused on doing close-macro shots and normal photos and so don't really need a wide lens, but that 18-105 is the only kit glass that comes with the camera. I heard it's not great, but not bad either and I doubt I can find anything better for £120 (that's the price difference between the body alone and the kit).

Because Canon recently released the 50d model, the 40d will start getting a bit cheaper, and even now you can buy a body for less than £550 (around £539 if I'm not mistaken). With my price limit set at £750 that leaves £200 for a lens which isn't much, but I guess should be enough to buy something decent. Whether it's going to be better than the kit lens, I dunno.

I tried looking for some kit lens reviews, and unfortunatelly there's not much out there as people don't really test kit lenses that often. I'm guessing that both the Canon and Nikon kit lens is going to be reasonably good.

Regards,
dsc.

[JonS]

Tom,

On reflection, I probably came over a bit harsh on the kit lenses. They pale in comparison optically with the manufacturers' really good lenses, are specialists at nothing in particular, and don't exploit the full potential of the camera bodies.

On the other hand, they do represent good value when purchased as a kit with the body, and their broad coverage allows you to get a feel for what you like and don't like in terms of focal lengths and apertures.

I wouldn't tear your hair out trying to find a decent lens for the remainder of your budget after a body-only purchase, I think it will be a struggle. I guess my point really was that body choice based on the spec sheet alone is somewhat academic when the bodies are more capable than the kit lenses and the good lenses have a price tag approaching, matching, or greatly exceeding the cost of the body in the first place !

If you have the kit lens, you could maybe add a 50mm prime at a later date for low light / shallow depth of field work and have a nice setup. Sure, you could just buy the body and the 50mm prime to start with, but you'll either think that's an amazing setup to work with, or extremely limiting, it just depends on how you work and what you want to shoot.

Jon

[dsc]

Hi Jon,

yes I know what you mean. It's sort of like grinders and espresso machines, it's not the machine that counts, it's the grinder stupid!:) I know that even a great body won't work well with crappy lenses and will give mediocre photos. I'm also aware that good lenses can cost more than camera bodies, not really a surprise as it is what makes a good camera (aside from the guy standing behind it).

Today I will go to my local Jessops and try both cameras out, but I'm pretty sure I will go with the Nikon as I've read somewhere that it's kit lenses are quite good and less plastic'y. Will report back:)

Regards,
dsc.

[dsc]

Hi again,

I checked both cameras yesterday and I have to say it was a good 'hands on' experiance. First was the Nikon D90, a bit smaller than I imagined it would be. Quality materials, no cheap plastics, feels comfortable, not too light, not too heavy. Can't say I was overly impressed with where the shutter button is, but I do have pretty long fingers, so it might be just that. The LCD is quite impressive, looks like a small plasma TV:) The kit lens zooms nicely, offers smooth operation and seems like it should be good enough. I checked the LV mode as well and I agree that AF sucks with it on, it takes a couple of seconds for the camera to focus. I'm not too worried about it as I won't be using LV, but it just seems stupid to put a LV option on a 800 quid camera and than screw it with the AF.

The second camera was the Canon 40d, which is a bit bigger than the Nikon D90. It looks impressive, a bit like it was bullet proof. The LCD isn't as good as on the D90, but still enough to see what's going on check out your photos. There's more space for the thumb and it does feel a bit more comfortable than the D90, but the shutter button is placed even weirder than on the D90. The kit lens does feel and look a bit rubbish and doesn't work as smoothly as on the D90. It zooms instantly in normal mode and a bit slower in LV, but still faster than on the D90.

Conclusion? I'm not sure but I'm leaning a bit towards the D90. The biggest cons are the kit lens and how the shutter button is positioned on the body (feels like my hand would get tired pretty fast on the 40d even though the grip is a bit more comfortable). I will have to pay Jessops another visit and check out the cameras again. It also would be handy if someone who knows something about cameras was there as the girl who was helping me didn't know squat about dSLRs. Any ideas where I might go to check the cameras again and get to chat to someone who knows a lot about dSLRs?

Regards,
dsc.

[Gouezeri]

Tom.
Most of the comments on lenses above is very valid. Definitely a matter of grinders and espresso machines. Kit lenses are worth the money that you pay for them (cheap lenses at an even cheaper price). I would definitely look at which lenses you think might you need before picking a body.

As for Jessops, well they've been a lost cause for me for a number of years now. If you want hands on experience, I'd go to Aperture (for Nikon) and York (for Canon), they are just around the corner from each other in central London (nearest tube TCR). I know a load of other pro shops, but they are not so easy to get to. Yell if you want any other addresses. Personally, I'd buy from somewhere like warehouseexpress, as I know they provide excellent service on this kind of item.

[dsc]

Hi Dom,

I will take a trip to London this week and pay those two places a visit. I'm pretty sure both the 40d and the D90 are great cameras, probably more than I need, but I'd like to buy one and not upgrade for a while (at least not the body).

I will wait for now anyway and see if the prices drop a bit. Maybe after Christmas something will change, because at the moment both cameras arequite pricey (although 40d probably won't budge anymore as it's already discounted, but the D90 is a new model, so it should drop down).

Regards,
dsc.

[Gouezeri]

Personally, if you are looking for deals, I would go with KEH and look at exc to exc+. Note that anything bought outside of the EU will be considered a grey, and even a number of cameras that you can buy here are greys, so you need to consider how important a warranty is to you (against a better price).

Dslr prices only really tend to drop when a new model comes out (either a competitor or replacement), so bare this in mind against whatever use you might get out of a new camera over the next 2-3 months. It may be worth spending an extra 100 quid now, and have fun using it over Christmas.

My personal vote is for Nikon cameras, because of the mount. Canon make great cameras, but there is more quality secondhand glass available for Nikon, and they are much less likely to change their mount in the future. Start thinking now as to what length/speed of lenses you might want to use in the future (particularly VR or IS).

Aperture and York are both good shops (Aperture being a little quirky, but the guys know their stuff, never tried the coffee there though), Calumet is ok too. You could also check out Grey's, but we're getting even "quirkier" now. If you feel happier in Jessops style shops, then go to the "pro" counter at Jacobs (who are much better than Jessops now). I'd avoid all the shops on TCR though.
Let us know how you get on

[PD]

As the manager of a specialist photographic shop, I'd suggest you buy from a proper shop, ie Grays's of Westminster or the likes of, and not be ripped off with c**p service, gray imports and maybe even dodgy stock from alot of internet sellers. If you buy from a photographic dealer that knows their stock, then you always have the luxury of being able to visit or phone if you have queries or difficulties.

[dsc]

Hi PD,

The main question is, how often does dSLRs brake? I mean on their own, without any help (like dropping it on the floor, or keeping it on the rain). And even then the camera gets sent to an authorised service place, so as long as the camera has warranty it shouldn't make a difference. Of course to most people the price difference is also quite important.

Regards,
dsc.

[Gouezeri]

Generally speaking PD, I'd agree with you on buying from a reputable shop, and when I recommended warehouseexpress (and keh) it is because their reputation and levels of service are extremely high, (I've forgotten how many times warehouseexpress have won the independent retailer award from AP). I would definitely trust these "internet retailers" over a number of well known high street shops where these cameras are available. The standard of knowledge and service in Jessops (a so called specialist shop) for example is appalling. The problem we have reached is that digital cameras are now sold by so many electrical goods shops, who have absolutely no idea what they are selling (even if their prices are ok). I would much rather support an independent dealer with a net presence, than many high street shops. There is no way I would by a camera, at this price level, from a source whose reputation was not already well known and established. As I mainly shoot LF (and some MF) these days, it is hard for me to find much that I need to buy, even if I am lucky enough to have access to places such as teamwork and mrcad. So I suppose I have gotten used to buying stuff off the net from places like robert white or badger in the US.

Grays' is a great place to visit and get advice, and I have bought a fair bit of stuff from them in the past (when I still shot 135), not as easy to get to as the other places mentioned above though. Retail prices for some of this gear in London is way too expensive as well, though you may be able to haggle on prices, a bit.

For the kind of money you are looking to spend Tom, and for a new camera, I would not buy grey, in fact I would want to make certain it was not a grey. Nor would I buy new from keh, but rather look at older, better specced models, in excellent condition. I'm not sure if I made this totally clear above, my fault.

How often do SLRs break? I think you'd probably be surprised how easy it is to have a problem, as dslr's have become such a complicated piece of equipment. They are no longer the "light tight boxes" they once were! So I would want to buy from a reputable shop who would be willing to replace a body/accessory wherever necessary. The advantage of using a shop like Grays or Aperture, is that they can help you to arrange a 'CLA' whenever necessary, whereas internet only stores will very rarely provide services like this.

The one thing I don't like about Nikon, is Nikon UK (I have friends who used to work there as techs and the stories are horrendous)

Tom, do give us a heads up before buying somewhere and hopefully we'll be able to recommend somewhere that will be able to offer you a good price and good service. Most of the places that advertise at the back of Amateur Photographer are pretty reputable.

PD, I doubt I'll ever get the chance to visit your shop in Ireland, but I would be keen to check out your website, if you'd like to PM it to me?

[PD]

Hi Gouezeri.
I have to pretty much agree with all that you said especially the big J. The real dealers with web presence is the best all round option for most people, plus they're trust worthy. The level of service from electrical shops selling camera gear is usually appalling to say the least. Certainly within our shop, we hear horror stories about lots of online sellers and they are usually ripping the customer off. Hong Kong sellers are another menace.

Hi DSC
The reliability of DSLR's from people like Canon and Nikon are very high. We find the vast majority of problems stem from miss-use by the user.

[Gouezeri]

To be honest, I'm amazed at how what would have been considered a camera for a keen photographer, are now sold by high street electrical shops, and they seem to sell plenty of them. For many people, these cameras are simply overkill, and I doubt they are ever used with anything other than a kit lens!

I would avoid ebay like the plague, along with any firm that does not sell cameras as its primary source of income. Hong Kong, I would treat like a secondhand car dealer. Fine if you know precisely what you are looking for and how much to pay, whilst being aware that if anything goes wrong, you are more than likely to be on your own. There's also the risk of importing anything from HK when it comes to duty.

Canon and Nikon are about as reliable as you could possibly get, and it is really quite rare to hear of design faults. Yet problems do arise and that is when you obviously want an experienced and understanding dealer. Fixing cameras that are so technologically advanced has become really quite tricky and is often not worth the expense.

How are you getting on with the search anyway?

[Neo]

Even though I am from Hong Kong, I suggest you avoid buying cameras from HK online sellers. They are quite dishonest especially when you are overseas and solving disputes is quite difficult.