How much would/should you pay for good coffee?

[Terje]

Knowing as I do now how much work actually goes into just harvesting and preparing the raw beans I'm not sure I think the high priced coffees out there, like Kona for instance, is actually over priced. It's rather the other beans that are way under priced.

Then you don't want to pay the wrong person, right? But let's say I could personally pay the people who harvest the Yirgacheffe I need so badly... I'd be willing to pay pretty much for that. If I could pay the people who do the hard work getting me those beans I'd easily be willing to go to €50 per kilo.

[fiend]

When you think about the amount of land and labour that goes in to getting a bean grown, washed and bagged it scares me a little. If I had to hand pick every coffee bean that I drank, I don't think I would drink very much at all.

While I enjoy coffee, I don't think I would buy it if it was signicantly more than other drinks in similar situations:

At home I drink fruit juice at around 20p per glass (ok - similar exploitation issues I guess), beer at about 75p per bottle (not counting the fuel I spend on driving to Belgium to get it), and water for as good as free. So if a coffee cost more than £1 worth of consumables to drink at home it would probably be above my threshold.

At a daytime/lunch venue I would spend up to £2 on a smoothie, and could probably handle up to £3 for a well made coffee.

In the evening I would spend between £2-£5 for a bottle or pint of beer, and somewhere around £5 per serving of wine (it gets complicated by buying by glass or bottle, with meal or dessert etc.), but the coffee would probably sit functionally in the general dessert category, so perhaps up to £7 for a coffee that was of a higher standard than what you would drink for lunch.

The original grower only receives a very small portion of the final cost of the beans that I consume, but it's difficult to think of a way where the grower could get a higher price without it being multiplied by all the other steps in between where the markup is percentage based.

How does it work for growers in places like Australia? They seem to be able to make beans at a price that isn't too much higher, but surely the wages and profits are a little higher than what you would expect in Africa? (As a New Zealander obviously it's no concern to me if Australians are exploited though).

Rhys

[Steve]

This is really refreshing post to read. I agree that we should reward farmers for there hard work. Australia is a strange one (although don’t quote me as I cant remember where I heard it) as there are grants etc to help the growing there (they did the same when setting up the vines for the wine industry).

The market is changing the farmers are getting a better deal than say five years ago, and with enthusiast like TMC members wanting to know more about the coffee and knowing more about the farms then the price can only go up for the quality coffee.

The problem lies with the farmer growing robusta and growing generic coffees that are going to the commodities market. I worry about this sector very much.

But the future is bright for coffee prices and more importantly coffee quality has never been better. I think were in the golden age of coffee quality at the moment and roasters and importers need to use this time while the quality is so good to raise awareness of speciality coffee.

As a side note the low prices that get all the publicity are these generic commodity coffee's and robusta's and although speciality farmers don’t get enough they are getting more.

Steve

[zix]

As you say, the real biggie is all the generic coffee that is traded, and how the people that produce it fare, and how this affects the whole business in the long run. It is fiendishly complicated stuff, since so many people of all kinds are involved.

As a side note the low prices that get all the publicity are these generic commodity coffee's and robusta's and although speciality farmers don’t get enough they are getting more.

It is good to know that this is the case. And people who buy speciality coffee from you, and the likes of you, can do it with a clean(-er) conscience, which is great. I only wish there was someone like you in Sweden too. Perhaps there is, only I don't know about him/her. Perhaps he is even lurking around here? I would really love to hear and see someone else than the usual suspects (environmentalists, lefties, alternative people and so on, peace be on all of us) start talking and acting in forums like this, bringing light to these questions. Someone brave, someone like Steve.

I would so want for this topic to be a bit less touchy. Yes Phil, I know we can say almost whatever we want here. Thanks for that! But had I worked for Nestlé, to name but one big coffee company, perhaps I would have seen things a bit differently.
Anyway, I think good coffee, like good wine, is worth a lot. As of today, I could pay about 2€ per cup for homemade (which is also homeroasted) if it is good. At the most 4€, but then it would have to be a real good one. This is, incidentally, about the same money as I would pay for a glass of wine if I brought a bottle home.
But then I would like for the producer to get at least 1€ per cup. I know this is not the way things work today, but perhaps they could?

[Gouezeri]

I agree with Zix regarding pretty much all of this, except:

Anyway, I think good coffee, like good wine, is worth a lot.

You're right, but sadly this isn't the case, as I know a number of (award winning) viticulteurs who will close the doors on their businesses the day they retire. They adamantly refuse to let their children suffer in the manner that they have, by taking over the family business which is often 5 generations and more old. As a general rule I don't believe in subsidies (even though they are fairly prevalent in France), but I can tell you first hand that those producing "good wine" are having a very tough time (subsidised or not). Supermarkets are largely to blame.
I just hope that in 10-20 years time all of the investments that the specialist coffee farmers will have made (and be enticed to make) will continue to bare fruit, be appreciated, and demand a fair price.
Please note, this is not a criticism of anyone here. It is a warning to us all for the future though.
D

[zix]

I agree with Zix regarding pretty much all of this, except:

Anyway, I think good coffee, like good wine, is worth a lot.

You're right, but sadly this isn't the case, as I know a number of (award winning) viticulteurs who will close the doors on their businesses the day they retire... snip... Supermarkets are largely to blame.

Perhaps I should have added "for me" somewhere there. I was only using wine as a reference to how much I value coffee, not making a statement about the condition of the wine business. You are right, of course, too small margins hurts viticulteurs (thanks for teaching me another word by the way :^)) just as it hurts coffee growers, and it is good to make people aware of that too. Coffee is just a very blatant example of unfair trade, and the worlds largest trade commodity (merchandise?), or close to it.

Supermarkets are largely to blame

Hmmm. Yes, perhaps they are? Then again, people like us (but not us, of course, right?) go there to buy stuff all the time. Not a lot we can do about it? Yes, I think there is. Choosing fair trade products over unfair trade products is a good start, but I think more can be done. Ideas?

P.S. By using the phrase "fair trade" I am not only referring to products that have that label, but to every product that represents a fair trade. D.S.

[Steve]

Zix Wrote

P.S. By using the phrase "fair trade" I am not only referring to products that have that label, but to every product that represents a fair trade. D.S.

Phew thank god for that part so closely blew a gasket

Steve

[Gouezeri]

Hey Zix,
Wasn't addressing my comments personally at you, just extrapolating to a different (but similar) market.
This is kind of taking us back to other threads on "consumption." The important thing is actually taking an interest in ethically sourcing the products that we use. It makes such a difference when the person who supplies you with a product has been personally involved in the process and actually shows a concern for both ends of the chain. The result, I find, is often a quality product with a fair price.
D

[BAB]

I am neither coffee guru nor economist nor socialist and so speak with no authority on this matter. However, as a consumer, I'll put in my tuppence anyway.
I love coffee. It's a pretty cheap drink compared with wine or beer, which is as it should be given there's no real duty on it. I want to pay the minimum amount to ensure that I have a constant supply of Monsooned Malabar. If I walk down the street and see somebody roasting beans and selling them cheaper than my current supplier I'll probably buy the cheaper stuff, all things being equal.

I don't get to set the price, others do and I don't know where the beans come from or how much the farmer gets so I don't know what a "fair" price is. In fact, the price I pay generally has no relationship to the price paid to the farmer. 'Fair Trade' products claim to offer a better price to the farmers but I'm not sure how much more and why I have to pay it. Can't the 'Fair Trade' guys just cut their profits and give it to the farmers? The real problem for me is that I don't know anybody in the chain, so without having any information I find it impossible to buy "ethically".

I am happy to believe that "Coffee is just a very blatant example of unfair trade" but can somebody please tell me why? Not just "well, you know... there was that thing on BBC2 a few years ago" but a proper answer.

I am also happy to believe that "Supermarkets are largely to blame." but again, in what way?

Now this probably all sounds like I'm in favour of grinding the farmers into the ground and propping up the profits of Tesco et al but it's not so. I'd like to know what I can do to help. If I can find out why I am trading so unfairly and am in league with the supermarkets perhaps I can stop. This'd be a great place to start a coffee revolution, let's try and do it without creating revolting coffee.

[zix]

Hi BAB! Welcome.
I lack all the titles you mention in your first row, so my views, true or false, come from the consumer standpoint. Nevertheless, I tend to worry about several global questions... Anyway, here somewhere to start: the article "so you say there´s a coffee crisis" is getting old, but it is still there to read on CG.

[Steve]

Coffee is one of the biggest examples on "unfair trade" as before the specialty revolution that were all part of, happened the farmers could only sell to the commodities market of the big roasters (nestle etc). So as all big companies who have lots of share holders, profits are king so they drove down the price of the coffee, so the quality dropped and everyone got cheaper coffee and the farmer got a poor price. Poor quality coffee is the one suffering.

Another problem is that the markets are unstable. Over supply of cheap poor quality coffee means it becomes uneconomical to grow coffee, farms were turned over to new products and then the coffee price would rise so farmers re planted which lead to over supply and on and on this go's. Cheap coffee is cheaper for a reason, and it comes down to quality of bean. The market place is such that if you have a good product then you will find a buyer who will pay that premium, without the need for fair trade stamps or anything else.

I'm sure there are others here who can give you a better answer to the whole supermarket thing but you only have to listen to farmers in this country who are complaining about the pressure these big buyers are putting on them. So just think of the fun they can have with farmers in another country who they can exploit some more.

Steve

[tisri]

Supermarkets are largely to blame.

Much as I hate supermarkets they only stock what people want to buy. If enough people refused to buy anything they considered "exploitative" I'll bet the supermarkets would soon change their game.

[Steve]

But Tisri I think its more about their buying power, and unfortunatly the majority of consumers wish to pay as little as they can without thinking of the repercussions. Thank god I'm not(and neither I think the majority of people here).

Steve

[phil]

Much as I hate supermarkets they only stock what people want to buy

NONSENSE

They only sell what suits them, which is usually something they can puff up with marketing hype and sell at a large margin

I can't remember when supermarkets last had what I wanted to buy, rather than what I reluctantly decided I had to make do with.

Supermarkets sell that which they feel they can make their customers buy. Do not confuse this with choice.

[tisri]

Much as I hate supermarkets they only stock what people want to buy

NONSENSE

They only sell what suits them, which is usually something they can puff up with marketing hype and sell at a large margin

I can't remember when supermarkets last had what I wanted to buy, rather than what I reluctantly decided I had to make do with.

Supermarkets sell that which they feel they can make their customers buy. Do not confuse this with choice.

OK, let me rephrase, they sell what people will buy. You're quite right about what they think they can get away with, but if people stopped buying whatever crap they hawked I still say they'd raise their game.

Personally I've long since stopped buying "second best" if they can't sell what I want, although in fairness since I live in London I've got a good selection of other shops to visit.