A new article

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A new article

Postby phil » Tue Nov 04, 2003 11:28 pm

Michel has written a new article, not so much a review of his Elektra as a rant about misleading reviews.

The article is accessible from the front page. The menu structure is naff: I'm sorry about that, but I just bodged something together that allowed me to keep my promise to publish Michel's work tonight. I'll tart things up soon - although probably not this weekend, as we have a mixed broadwing and shortwing field meet on Saturday and you all know where I'm going on Sunday!

I would appreciate some feedback. I totally support Michel's views and his right to express them, and I don't really expect a libel writ from the man in Canada - but am I being naive?
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Postby HughF » Wed Nov 05, 2003 5:48 pm

You asked for feedback...

I read Michels article and then went back and read the whole CG Detailed Review. The main differences seem to be :

a) Michel says only 2 decent drinks can be produced, MP says 4 but mentions turning off the machine for big chunks of time to achieve this (and using a cold washcloth to help also); it wasn't clear from his article whether or not Michel has tried these tactics, maybe Michel should mention if he has - if so and the Elektra doesn't give Michel 4 decent drinks before overheating then that is a VERY important problem with the CG review. Even with just two of us in the house I make THREE espresso drinks in each daily session at weekends (one HWP roast gives 3 off 19 gram double shots).

b) the tone of the CG review is focusing much more on the positives than Michel but it does definitely mention the downsides of the Elektra also. The refusal to give a numeric rating also makes clear the up and downsides of the machine explicitly and makes snap judgements by readers more difficult : a good idea. The feedback from all the (several) Elektra users who commented seems so far to agree with MP in his tone.

There is indeed a major difference in tone between Michel and CG but the CG review doesn't feel way OTT to me, although I'm looking in from the outside as a non-Elektra owner. Point a) would worry me a lot more if the review is incorrect there. Point b) is more tricky - a positive outlook is a subjective thing and not necessarily a crime (whatever the cause) unless it is provably unrealistic to the extent of misleading readers significantly.

If you wish to ignore these comments, feel free. I'm generally very much in favour of the CG site and I'm presently doing unpaid beta testing of CG V2 as a thank-you for the interest and information I've had reading the site - so if you want to write me off as biased that's your option!

Cheers,

Hugh
Grinders : Macap MXK conical for espresso, Mahlkoenig Vario for Chemex, Macap MC6 (spare when our office was closed) for cafetiere, Zassenhaus Knee Mill for cafetiere when working away from home.
La Spaziale Vivaldi S1 espresso machine. HotTop KN8828P roaster. Chemex manual drip for most brewed coffee plus cafetieres and eSantos.
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Postby phil » Wed Nov 05, 2003 5:59 pm

Hey Hugh, no need to get heavy!

Michel has his point of view. We gave him the option to publish it. 'Nuff said.

He was slagging Mark and his attitude to reviews, rather than the CoffeeGeek site, most of the content of which is user-generated anyway. Most if not all of us are members of CoffeeGeek. His opinion may be a little more extreme than yours or mine because he's a disappointed Elektra owner. That said I know some things about other commercial influences that Mark seems to have fallen prey to, so I can sympathise with his opinion, correct or not.
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Postby Raf » Wed Nov 05, 2003 7:00 pm

(Erm, I don't think Hugh meant to be heavy, Phil, he just wants us to know that he's somewhat involved in CG.)

I do agree with the main point Michel makes: that Mark sometimes seems overly friendly to "the industry", as we'll call it, and he does seem to defend manufacturers and other CG advertisers on every occasion, occasionally using his 300-pound-gorilla status as a way to press a point on a.c, without mentioning his commercial or friendly ties with those manufacturers or advertisers.

I haven't read the Elektra review yet though, so I can't say if I agree more with him than with Hugh. I'll look into it, but I must admit that Michels language is somewhat on the strong side here and there.
This week I am eagerly anticipating the first god shots from my La Spaziale machine....

La Spaziale S1, Vibiemme Domobar (retd), Mazzer Mini Electronic, Behmor 1600 230V
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Postby HughF » Wed Nov 05, 2003 7:39 pm

I didn't think I was getting heavy.... and I believe my tone was polite; I certainly intended to be polite.

I saw my (requested!) original reply as just giving feedback (also proving that someone had read the article as asked) - which happens to disagree somewhat in some respects with Michel - BUT my original reply was NOT implying that Michel is not entitled to his point of view.

If Michel can't get 4 decent drinks out of his Elektra in one session after having given "the CG/MP turn-off/cooling method" a really thorough test, then I believe I was actually agreeing with him overall that there was a crucial problem with the CG review!

I'm very sorry that Michel has had an unsatisfying time with his Elektra; I appreciate that it must be extremely frustrating to see enthusiasm for the machine elsewhere which he believes to be unjustified.

Cheers,

Hugh
Grinders : Macap MXK conical for espresso, Mahlkoenig Vario for Chemex, Macap MC6 (spare when our office was closed) for cafetiere, Zassenhaus Knee Mill for cafetiere when working away from home.
La Spaziale Vivaldi S1 espresso machine. HotTop KN8828P roaster. Chemex manual drip for most brewed coffee plus cafetieres and eSantos.
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Postby Raf » Wed Nov 05, 2003 8:42 pm

HughF wrote:I didn't think I was getting heavy.... and I believe my tone was polite; I certainly intended to be polite.

I saw my (requested!) original reply as just giving feedback (also proving that someone had read the article as asked) - which happens to disagree somewhat in some respects with Michel - BUT my original reply was NOT implying that Michel is not entitled to his point of view.


Of course you were polite, Hugh.

I just finished a cursory (boy that guy writes flowery sentences! my editor would cut this thing to about one tenth of its actual length) read of MP's article, and here's my professional opinion (I review books sometimes, so hey).

I can't blame Michel for speeding off like a bullet to buy this thing: what MP basically says is: sure it'll take a lot of time to master it, but once you're there this is the greatest way to make espresso. I mean, this article is a write up (if that's the word I'm looking for).

On the other hand, I can blame Michel for believing MP too readily. He tends to say this sort of thing about anything that produces coffee in general and espresso in particular, especially when he gets to use expensive toys for extended periods of time for free. His style is always flowery (boy, is he flowery) and he's always gushing about great service and friendly people and great manufacturers and, dare I say, blah blah blah.

I'm also very sorry that you're disappointed in your (expensive) machine, Michel (I feel acute pain about my Rancilio Rocky and it cost not even half of that Elektra), but judging from the looks of that Elektra, I'd say you got at least a great objet d'art to put somewhere in your living room (which cannot be said of the Rocky).
This week I am eagerly anticipating the first god shots from my La Spaziale machine....

La Spaziale S1, Vibiemme Domobar (retd), Mazzer Mini Electronic, Behmor 1600 230V
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Postby michel » Wed Nov 05, 2003 9:13 pm

Hugh,
Thanks for your nuancing words...

Let me first explain some things:
-The situation when I bought Elektra:
I was a bit tired of temp-surfing Silvia and also wanted to froth the milk right after pulling a shot. So I decided to buy a Giotto...
Then I came across MP's review of the Elektra and I thought': 'Well, this machine can froth right away... I make only a couple of drinks in a row... the machine is small and beautifull. Why not? It's not a really convenient machine, but Silvia is not either... and besides I can froth quicker anyway". So MP's beautifull prose made my mind switch (this tells probably also a lot about me being a bit naive...) and I bought a lever (which is so awkward that alhough you can froth like the best, pulling two strong/full shots in one time is not possible. So, as I want to make two cappa's most of the time when milkdrinks are involved, I have to fill the double basket two times and pull two shots, after which I can froth. So I'm still having some sort of awkward ritual as on Silvia, only this time pulling the shots is the problem and not the 4 minutes waiting to froth...).
-I've tried the cold washcloth technique, and in my experience it does not make a real difference when the machine is to hot after a couple of shots. What does work (and I can make 6 or 7 shots in a row) is temp-surfing in such a way, that you pull shot's only when the bar is set between 0,5 and 1 bar... this means that you have to shut the machine off imideately after pulling a shot, and restart it when you want to pull the next. I was actually quite happy with this technique for a couple of weeks. But as the overall shot (you are not allowed to pull a shot at the normal 1,5 bar) is less in quality and taste, compared to the 'normal' routine of two shots at 1,5 bar... I gave up this technique.
The machine is a 'One shot wonder' as I think Mark wrote somewhere... and that's immediately the
second point I want to clear up:
-My language is a bit strong - as I'm frustrated for months now with a machine which costs lots of money and seems to be more limited than I thought in first instance - but my criticism is not pointed at MP in person, but at what is happening at CG...
Furthermore my prose begins with:
''Futhermore, a good review about the Elektra lever is published on Coffeegeek" ... "It seems to me that the review is sort of manipulated... There is no lie in the review, but there are some points not mentioned, or mentioned in such a way, that you read it and forget it instantly as the following phrase is all praise again"

As you can see, this quote is exactly written in the way words are used and twisted in the reviews on CG. I say something good: 'A good review about...' and then I say something bad '...manipulated'. If someone mentions after reading: 'how can you say the reviews are not good...' I can alway's say: 'Hey, I said also "a good review..."'.
So when MP writes: This is a bit uncomfortable about Elektra... and right after it he writes: but these other points are extremely good on Elektra, especially when compared to other levers...' I think there is some misleading involved...
And I think this is my major point about the reviews on CG. Words are twisted, and put in such a way, that the overall feeling after reading is quite positive, although all negative points are mentioned in the review... You seem to forget the negative points mentioned or you are encouraged (by this 'hypnotic' prose) to 'a big wanting to believe' that it is not so bad at all, that the points mentioned are the worst to find (and probably not faced by yourselve ever... as the machine has such wonderfull qualities...).
I think syntax is everything... and that Mark can play with this, as well as with what other machine to compare with. For example when he talks about the amount of coffee the double basket can hold, he writes:
'I did find in my testing that since the Micro Casa's double basket held up to 3 grams more than the Pavoni double basket (14,5 grams vs 11,5 to 12 grams)' - in stead of comparing this with a 'normal' commercial filterbasket (which is in the same price-range, and probably one of the other options for someone in search of...).
-Your point b, about the tone of the CG review... Positive is indeed the word. I've read some of it again, and in this quick read, the main thing which pops-up in my mind is: HALLELUJA! Only when you read between the lines and think about what it could mean, if he say's this or that, and if you start thinking about the how and why he did not rated it, and that somewhere, between all the HALLELUJA, is mentioned that ... you are probably convinced not to buy this machine.
As stated before: MP does not lie! He is only a gifted writer, who can probably sell a fridge to an Eskimo...
So he gave a positive outlook on a machine which should earn in my opinion a rating: -5. Sure she is beautifull and you can make some good shots, but at what price... So if he was fair (and I think he was not, because...) he would have EXPLICITLY wrote that this machine is only for bachelor freaks who never want to make two cappa's at a time, and who are willing to spent lots of money on a machine which can make the best espresso compared to a Pavoni... but not to a decent HX of the same price... and he would have mentioned this as a warning at the end of the review!

Hugh, you write: 'a positive outlook is a subjective thing...'
I think MP is quite capable of giving an unsubjective outlook, which would be much better for CG anyway.

'unless it is provably unrealistic to the extent of misleading...'
He does mislead readers in my view. Although I can not say if he does it on purpose. Maybe he is in love with all the machines he tests, and is it just the way he writes... But even then, when I can't blame MP, I can still warn other potential buyers not to buy this machine because of the review of MP.
And maybe there are no commercial interest, and maybe I'm just a dissapointed owner of a machine which is HALLELUJA'd at a certain place, and I am a bit angry about this, because it is not correct (imho).

Hugh, thank you very much for your effort and your time, your serious investigation, and forcing me to look even more serious at it again...
And also: I don't think you are biased (only a bit hypnotised :wink: )

Michel
(feeling more and more fallible...)
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Postby michel » Wed Nov 05, 2003 9:24 pm

Neku and Hugh,
While I was typing my response to Hugh, you made already a couple of new posts. Thanks for you guys feeling sorry with me for buying the Elektra. I'm a romantic person who can't resists MP's words... I read poetry a lot, and what Mark does is almost poetry... as Neku wrote already... and indeed, the one who has 90 percent of the blame is MICHEL. (and Elektra of course for manufacturing a machine which costs 1000 euro and makes espresso like a Krups (after the first two shots of course...).
Neku I feel sorry for you owning Rocky too... (hope this helps).

Michel
A kitchen without espresso-gear is like a body without a soul.
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Postby phil » Wed Nov 05, 2003 10:04 pm

Of course you were polite Hugh - never anything else. It was just the "you can ignore me if you want" bit that perhaps gave me the wrong impression about your feelings.

Sorry if I seemed hard on you - I've had a bad day beating up developers!

And if you want to write something as well, I'll be just as happy to publish it as I was Michel's article. :) It's content. The only editorial control I exercised was to smarten up the presentation a little.

Cheers

Phil
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Postby phil » Wed Nov 05, 2003 10:07 pm

Oh and on reflection the bit about "I totally support Michel's views" was perhaps unnecessarily enthusiastic (sorry Michel) - I do have (I think good) reason to suspect commercial bias from Mr Prince in at least one matter, so I am predisposed to believe it again. :oops:
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Postby HughF » Wed Nov 05, 2003 11:10 pm

Thanks for taking my comments in good heart Michel.

Thanks Phil and Neku - I'll go back to sleep now!

Cheers,

Hugh
Grinders : Macap MXK conical for espresso, Mahlkoenig Vario for Chemex, Macap MC6 (spare when our office was closed) for cafetiere, Zassenhaus Knee Mill for cafetiere when working away from home.
La Spaziale Vivaldi S1 espresso machine. HotTop KN8828P roaster. Chemex manual drip for most brewed coffee plus cafetieres and eSantos.
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