Too Much Coffee

Hugo wrote:We all live in hope...

I was going to end my diatribe with "Of course, I have no real hope of this happening," but thought I wouldn't be that pessimistic.

bruceb wrote:...But if a shop started offering coffee made from good fresh beans without substantially increasing the price people might begin to notice the difference and begin to chose accordingly.

Well I hope, and believe, that we are doing just that. Our regular customers often don't know why they prefer our coffee, but they do notice the difference. And because we don't charge too much, they have less incentive to go elsewhere.
Once our new espresso machine is delivered, we will start offering "special" coffees next to our "standard" blend.
It can be done. But it is not highly profitable, and it is very hard work. But if you care about coffee it is ultimately very rewarding.

Whilst I'd rather the local competition didn't discover that making better coffee brings in extra customers, I'm happy to say most of them can't be bothered and will remain utterly mediocre for the forseeable future..

Lets keep it a secret shall we? Just between thee and me...

This is possibly the most irritating thread I've ever followed - so what follows is likely to be at least mildly rude...

Those who think it's easy to make money selling great coffee cheaply...go and do it. After a few months trading I'll be more than happy to read your thoughts on coffee pricing.

This thread really makes me think people should have to post with full names and who they are (i.e. hobbiest, roaster, cafe owner)...not that it's difficult to spot who knows what they're talking about and who doesn't!

Anyway, I don't read coffee sites to get annoyed so I'll relax now

Not even slightly rude and not a million miles off what I wanted to say when I had to bite my tongue. There is a distinct clash of pro & sumer in this thread and I was tempted to start a rival thread along the lines of "Customers don't have to be ******":wink:

For the record, my name is funnily enough Hugo, my surname is even more funnily Hercod. I own a little cafe, try to sell good coffee cheaply and my staff all make more money that I do...

Good coffee is being served at a reasonable price--and for a profit. We have at least one person in this thread able to do it, and I can give you another address of a place in Taiwan. There isn't a huge amount of money in it, and it involves selling more coffee and being generally busier than selling fewer cups of overpriced coffee, but it is doable.

Bruceb made a very good point at the beginning. No one challenged him because there is no representation from low-quality bulk roasters on here. However, I'm sure if such people were on here, they would no doubt try to defend themselves by talking about their rent, their capital, their labor, and blaming their cheap customers. Again, Bruceb's point was great, but something most of us already knew. I took his original point to the next step. Not only does good coffee not have to cost a lot for the coffee shop, it doesn't have to cost a lot for the customer, either. The two are ultimately linked. This is where the touchiness comes in because there is a representation of hobbyists/consumers and coffee-related business owners on here. Some have tried to blame their rent, capital, labor, and cheap customers, but that's just trying to distract from the real issue, namely that good coffee doesn't have to be expensive. I treat the justifications of overpriced coffee shops the same way that I treat the justifications of low-grade roasters. People will come up with any number of excuses to try to shift the blame when they feel threatened: that's humanity. People who don't feel threatened have nothing to fear: that's humanity, too. It's interesting to see in this thread the ones who feel threatened and the ones who have nothing to fear. People who aren't selling overpriced coffee don't have anything to fear from a discussion of overpriced coffee, just like people who aren't selling low-quality coffee have nothing to fear from a discussion of low-quality coffee. The two are ultimately linked.

Also, does prefacing one's comments with "this is possibly the most irritating thread I've ever followed" or ending with "rant over" somehow lend more credibility to the comments being made? I've never felt that it does, but please let me know. If this is the case, then I'll start using these pretentious and annoying little phrases too.

This whole mess is the result of my not having begun the first thread with the words: "This does NOT apply to you! It only applies to the pizza restaurants, cafés and bars in Germany that insist on serving terrible espresso." That might have defused the situation...or it might not have since people only seem to read their own thoughts and not what anyone else has written.

Not one of the "pros" has taken a moment to refute my original calculations or point out the wrong thinking involved, if indeed it is wrong. Taking on a threatening tone, suggesting we list our credentials here (so that reprisals can be taken?) only underlines the pressure of the food/drink services industry in general. It is no secret that it is very difficult and very hard work to successfully run a café or restaurant. The fact that is being ignored is that it is very difficult not to lose your shirt in the business regardless of whether you serve good or bad coffee and I would venture to say that serving good coffee is no more a guarantee of success than serving good food. Customers are fickle, building owners are greedy, popular trends come and go, the general economic level of a community is impossible to predict and so on. Digging graves is a reliable business. Gastronomy on a whole is not.

I am a good cook and I can make pretty good coffee, but I know full well that that does not qualify me to start a business. For years I've followed openings and closings of catering businesses, restaurants, cafés and so on. The few I thought might succeed didn't last for more than 2 years. In fact, none of them has lasted more than 5 years. I invested in a couple and lost my money. I am not a business man.

All I wanted to consider here was whether it is or is not true that serving good coffee by using good fresh beans rather than stale, storage goods is possible without it becoming an impossible financial burden. I guess I didn't ask the question very well.

bruceb wrote:Not one of the "pros" has taken a moment to refute my original calculations or point out the wrong thinking involved, if indeed it is wrong.

<snip>

All I wanted to consider here was whether it is or is not true that serving good coffee by using good fresh beans rather than stale, storage goods is possible without it becoming an impossible financial burden. I guess I didn't ask the question very well.

Of course your point is very valid and true, Bruce. But it ain't the full truth...

Because for the owner it doesn't suffice to replace the crap coffee with a fresh quality product. For a notable difference in the cup they also needed to begin to clean & maintain their machines and grinders, replace burrs at least once a decade , scratch last weeks milk off their steam wands, scrape the rancid charcoal out of their portafilters and so forth. And also to learn how to properly make a good cup, e.g. that using the 120°C water/steam from the overheated HX doesn't help cup quality...

All in all, they needed to learn a little bit more about the product they serve, something they couldn't have possibly cared less about in the past decades. Or else the money on the fresh, quality coffee is spent in vain...

Well, at least that's the situation as I perceive it here in Austria in the vast majority of businesses serving coffee...

Thank you, Walter! That was what I wanted to hear. Now for the next question; wouldn't it really improve the quality of the coffee JUST to use fresh beans? Many of the places to which I was referring have good machines, but extraction times are off because they don't adjust the grinders properly or often enough. Nonetheless, wouldn't the coffee still taste better if they weren't using stale beans?

I'm not talking about "great" coffee, just palatable coffee. In fact, I guess I already know the answer and I know that you are right. Oh well...

I have to ask SlowRain - have you ever looked at the accounts of a typical high street cafe?

I think Walter makes an excellent point; it's not just about the cost of beans, but all the other factors that have to be considered when making a half decent cup and the willingness of a cafe owner to follow through on these day in, day out.

bruceb wrote:wouldn't it really improve the quality of the coffee JUST to use fresh beans? Many of the places to which I was referring have good machines, but extraction times are off because they don't adjust the grinders properly or often enough. Nonetheless, wouldn't the coffee still taste better if they weren't using stale beans?

In my opinion: barely.

This is what has frustrated the specilaity industry for so long. If all you had to do was just buy better coffee to get better drinks, with a very slight increase of costs, then everybody would likely do it.

Great coffee is utterly reliant on the preparation. I've tasted many a great blend turned to filth, with a worrying level of ease.

One of the biggest costs in a cup of coffee is the person who makes it. Training them, investing in them, retaining them and incentivising them all make a cup of coffee more expensive but also more delicious.

That's why I said, "...not great coffee, just palatable coffee." I'd do a test and give a local restaurant 5kg of my beans to try, but with the tax laws the way they are I'd be in jail before I got a chance to even try a cup. Well, it was just a whimsical thought anyway.

What brought me to ask the question in the first place is that I noticed a number of times that the machine, the person behind the machine and everything related actually looked pretty good. Even the coffee looked relatively good, but it tasted like what it was made of, musty, stale, rancid coffee beans with a "Best before" date of July 2025.

radish wrote:I have to ask SlowRain - have you ever looked at the accounts of a typical high street cafe?

I've been waiting for that question. There was an earlier comment about 'business acumen' and the dreaded 'why don't you do it yourself'.

My background is in finance, majoring in accounting. Now, not all accountants make good business people, but that experience (I used to work for one of the Big 5--now Big 4--accounting firms) gave me a look into the financial statements of many companies, including restaurants, real estate companies, and coffee shops--sometimes going through a lot of receipts if we were also the bookkeepers. In addition to that, I worked for Revenue Canada (now Canada Customs and Revenue Agency--that is Canada's tax authority) on a project that targeted bars, hotels, and restaurants. It's quite likely that I've looked at the financials of more food services companies than all of the people on here put together. That's the reason why I'm pursuing this thread with the vigor that I am.

(Additionally, your accountant is most likely raping you with their accounting fees. I recommend you choose your accountant in a similar way that you choose a good coffee shop: look for someone with experience (from one of the Big 4), but who has left them and started their own practice in a quite little office away from the hustle and bustle of high street. The Big 4 will all try to justify their high fees with lame excuses, but financial statement preparation for the average person, like coffee, doesn't have to be that expensive. A lot of what you're paying for is the fancy office, the business conferences, the tailored suits, the Benz, the big house, etc.)

An excellent point on training.

An excellent picture of a dog with a bone.

Rather than asking about the accounts, I'd like to know how all these cafes get the money to start up in the first place. If it comes from Bank Loans, then it is no wonder that so many fail before 5 years.