Good coffee doesn't need to be expensive

Is it actually possible to find a good shot?

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Postby DrTom » Thu Sep 10, 2009 5:20 pm

http://money.ca.msn.com/savings-debt/ga ... 360&page=9

I know the article is about saving money but why would you put used oil in your block?! :D

Sorry for offtopic.
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Postby CakeBoy » Thu Sep 10, 2009 11:35 pm

Slightly aside of the main points here, though another relevant observation I feel. It does not, of course, help cafes that provide superb coffee at £2 something to £3 a time when wannabes pop up and charge the same for poor quality beverages. Those customers having an unfortunate experience at the latter are bound to be less satisfied. Questions may perhaps then be asked about the quality to price ratio of cafes supplying 'speciality' coffee and the former tarred with the same brush.
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Postby SlowRain » Fri Sep 11, 2009 5:09 am

DrTom wrote:http://money.ca.msn.com/savings-debt/gallery.aspx?cp-documentid=21511360&page=9

I know the article is about saving money but why would you put used oil in your block?! :D

Sorry for offtopic.

It photographs closer to what people think oil looks like.

Sharpjd wrote:Do you mean charge more than you would like to pay?...in which case go elsewhere (I'm not being flippant, but it really is that simple).

That's exactly what I did. However, the places charging a reasonable price are fewer than the ones overcharging (I'm using 'overcharge' in the sense of an unjust price). Look at that link again: water, movie tickets, bank fees, coffee, oil changes are all overpriced. Everyone on here agrees with fourteen out of fifteen of those points. The only one that people on here disagree with is number 6: coffee. Of course people on here think coffee is reasonably priced because it's their industry. If I asked some bankers, they too would agree with fourteen out of fifteen of those points. If I asked some mechanics, they too would agree with fourteen out of fifteen. I'll let you guess which ones the bankers and mechanics won't think are overpriced (but I'll give you a hint, it sure won't be number 6).

Now take a look at that list again. All of those things--yes, all--are being priced in the marketplace on an ability-to-bear basis. Are you telling me that movie tickets are priced the way they are because the customer is all powerful? Are oil changes priced that way because the customer dictates it? Are bank fees priced that way because customers decide where to spend their money? Where can you go if everyone is doing it? Where?

I'd also like people to look at their own accounting fees. How many people on here go to an accountant from one of the Big 4? Every major city usually has one or two other local big firms, so include them as well. Which business owner on here doesn't try to look for an experienced bookkeeper offering their services from a modest office--or, better yet, try to do their own bookkeeping themselves? Most people choose a knowledgeable accountant and bookkeeper off of High Street or the Golden Mile because we recognize there is no inherent value in the extra fees you have to pay. Sure the lobby is nice. The service is great. You sit in a comfortable chair, the receptionist brings you a beverage: very posh. You go into the boardroom, sit in an executive chair, and listen to the professional tickle your ears. He hands you a very nice looking folder with your financial statements inside, the printing is so clear, the paper is thick. It's a great experience, is it not? The service is worth it, is it not? The presentation--that is, the beautiful quality of the printing and paper of the financial statements--is well worth it, is it not?

No, it most definitely is not. It's all a facade. It's based on appearance and image. Accounting fees, too, are priced on an ability-to-bear basis, and there is not one accountant in the world who won't try to justify their prices with rent, training, equipment, labor, and how it all adds value. But I know where their costs come from. So do the people on here. The people on here know it very well because I don't think anyone on here uses overpriced accountants. Funny how people can notice these things very clearly when it's in the expense section of the income statement, but not so clearly when it's in the revenue section.

Keep coffee affordable.
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Postby Jasonscheltus » Fri Sep 11, 2009 5:35 am

SlowRain wrote:the beautiful quality of the printing and paper of the financial statements--is well worth it, is it not?

No, it most definitely is not. It's all a facade. It's based on appearance and image.


Sure. And while we're not talking about coffee for a second....

You can't deny that people pay for these "excesses"; haircuts, fast cars, real estate agents with their cookie dough spray, goddamned clothes for god's sake! You might be feeling a little anti-materialistic and minimal, but start looking around you for what is purely utilitarian and you might be a little surprised with yourself! If customers decide this luxury increases the value of the service or product, then the value increases.

You can disagree with it if you like - for instance I don't put much worth on the surroundings while getting my hair cut. I know some people do, because there are some fancy fucking hairdressers out there who are surviving. Now I could try to argue the intrinsic value of the red crushed velvet wallpaper OR i could vote with my feet and get my mum to cut my hair.

I can't really say that the price the fancy haircutter is asking is "unjust" because to some people the price includes the experience which they value.

Do you see what I mean?
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Postby BigG » Fri Sep 11, 2009 1:01 pm

I know this thread has been thrown about a bit mainly as people are passionate about what they do.

I speak from a passionate coffee shop owner’s point of view.

The reality is people do not get it. This is from both sides of the coin.
The consumer on one side and the people who trade on the other, both are driven by basic economics, price and quality. Add to the mix people are generally lazy or just not bothered therefore mediocrity prevails.

So those of us that do care as consumers and as traders will always be in the minority as the green eyed buck and hard work/effort will always make it so. There are no short cuts no smoke and mirrors in the long haul. You have to rely on standards and that other people match your own and like most things in life they seldom do.

As with any product/service the majority is crap. The materials are poor, and the person adding value seldom does. Coffee is no different. I can make a good cappuccino/latte which accounts for the majority of our coffee sales with crap coffee. I can only make a great cup with great coffee. The heart of the cup must match the heart of the operator. I choose to make less money but great coffee (that will be on my humble tombstone).

Just like Hugo second name Hercod (a man that talks straight and is full of sense) we are not in it to make money just make a bit of a difference. It is on this note why next week will be serving one of the most talked about coffees the Costa Rica La Candelilla Tarrazú 100% Geisha El Quemado Lot 2009-2010 at our standard specialty coffee price. That means it’s about 50p more than a standard double shot, we have to spread the word. We do this because we want too and if people get it, it’s cool if not that is annoying but also cool. We have served high quality coffee mainly cup of excellence (COE) this way for over two years now and we know what the response will be. 1 in 10 will get it, but that one is worth it. We shall see…. (I hope one day it might even be 2 in 10)

Big fat rant over. And my chest is lighter, well a little

Also on the £5.00 (ok £4.95) a cup front there is a certain small independent café chain based in Harrogate that has been doing it for years (smoke and mirrors). We have served the same coffee as filter of the day at £1.60 a cup, which kind of proves the point.

So in summary, good coffee doesn’t need to be expensive, just served by someone that gives a ****. This is irrespective of what the price of coffee is or what the coffee market is doing at a given point (that is another debate I feel).
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Postby smoocher » Fri Sep 11, 2009 8:04 pm

i'm really interested in this 'cookie dough spray' that mr schelltus talks about
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Postby SlowRain » Sun Sep 13, 2009 11:49 am

Ah, but we have been talking about coffee all along. I've just been drawing parallels.

I feel that I can now agree with what you are saying. The fact that you can yourself draw a parallel between overpriced haircuts in superficial surroundings and overpriced coffee in superficial surroundings, and that the price of the product or service in both cases is based more on the amount the customers are willing to pay as opposed to their tangible or inherent value, is an acknowledgment of what I've been talking about all along. When I first brought up the sacrilegious idea of some coffee shops overcharging for a cup of coffee, everyone jumped all over me for not taking into account rent, labor, etc. I used accounting as an example, you used haircuts, but it's still the same thing. We can all, every one of us, spot it wherever we go, and we try our hardest to filter it out to look for value. You're right, some people are willing to pay for it, and businesses know it, so they set their prices accordingly. The pricing of coffee in many coffee shops is less about the actual cost of the product and more about what the customer will pay. Some places start with the price they think they can get for a cup, estimate how many cups they think they can sell, then work out how much they think they can spend on rent, equipment, and renovations. Anyone else spot the foolishness of doing it this way?

A secondary reason I've pursued this thread is not even from a consumer's standpoint. I think the specialty-coffee industry has, potentially, created a bubble. Mr. I-Created-A-Bubble-But-Don't-Want-To-Admit-It gave a very good definition of a bubble just a few days ago. Criticize him all you want, and justifiably so, for his role the current crisis, but Greenspan's definition holds up well when examining all the past bubbles in human history. A bubble is created by “the unquenchable capability of human beings, when confronted with long periods of prosperity, to presume that that will continue, and they begin to take speculative excesses.” Specialty coffee has had a pretty good run this past decade. However, take a look at some of the shops opening, look at their business strategies, look at the pricing: doesn't it begin to look like excess? If Greenspan and all the investment bankers around the world, particularly in New York and London, couldn't see the bubble because they were too close—or, more likely, blinded by the ways in which their very livelihoods were intricately tied to it—how much more so is the specialty-coffee industry likely to miss this potential bubble. Investment bankers were warned about derivatives trading back in 2002, yet they dismissed it. So much for the ability for experts to know what is going on within their own industry.

Keep coffee affordable. Save high street for franchises and egos. Diversify. Rely on lower margins and more customers. Keep debt very low. But, most importantly, keep coffee affordable.

Great points, BigG.
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Postby Hugo » Sun Sep 13, 2009 1:56 pm

Can I scream now? I really need to scream. It's like some sort of vindictive, psychological torture. :evil:

I'm off to garden to slaughter slugs with my strimmer. :twisted:
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Postby Gouezeri » Sun Sep 13, 2009 2:04 pm

Gardening? How quaint. You've clearly not got the 15-20 knot winds we've got over here Hugo :wink: Besides, with the huge profit you make through overcharging, can you not afford a team of gardeners?
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Postby Hugo » Sun Sep 13, 2009 2:17 pm

I've spent the morning sculling a quad on the river Fowey.... beautifully calm and sunny.

No wind here.... only several sulking jobless gardeners who've priced themselves out of the market despite repeatedly being told that wearing Barbour & Huter wellies, speaking in a faux westcountry accent and calling me M'lud simply isn't good enough. I'm no fool, I can spot shite pruning of my rose garden a mile off.... Cut my own hair this morning to boot, would make my Deloitte Touche Tohmatsu accountant proud. :)
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Postby Bombcup » Sun Sep 13, 2009 6:12 pm

Hmph, accountants eh?

The phone bill for all those calls to Geneva, that's what grinds my gears.
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Postby Gouezeri » Sun Sep 13, 2009 6:30 pm

Hah! Now if you went fixie like all the other people around here... no more gears to grind and thus a major saving!
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