Good coffee doesn't need to be expensive

[kingseven]

I found a bag of very old coffee the other day in the roastery, opened it and discovered that really specific restaurant coffee smell. I couldn't, up until that point, work out how they made coffee taste as bad as they do. Restaurants get away with murder when it comes to coffee, but then they'd rather turn a table then sell coffee and desert. Little incentive to do it properly.

Just to come back to context for the £3 thing - this would be a cup in amongst a regular (but simple) menu with a range of prices. The point was that coffees now are capable of delivering an experience that is worth more (though these come from much more expensive raw products). Most people won't try it, until they've had repeated great experiences for £2 and want to know what another pound buys you. (Elysian Room in Vancouver make this model work beautifully, and in a very inspiring way!) It is gentle education at the customers pace, without it having to be forced upon them. If they are never interested then fine. A great cafe should have a suitable, delicious and good value drink for just about anyone. If you want a straight shot then great! A cup of nice sweet, approachable coffee - splendid! It isn't about elitism, snobbishness, but the need for progression at a rate that is above inflation!

[JulieJayne]

Just to come back to context for the £3 thing - this would be a cup in amongst a regular (but simple) menu with a range of prices.

I don't think that this would work in most establishments. You are based in London, in parts of such a large city, maybe. But not many of us are fortunate enough to work in such an environment. In order to make a £3-£5 coffee viable you need to have enough coffee fans prepared to pay that.

For most of us having an expensive coffee on the menu would be a total waste, as most of the coffee would have to be thrown away, as it would be out of date before we could find enough customers for it.

[CakeBoy]

It is gentle education at the customers pace, without it having to be forced upon them. If they are never interested then fine. A great cafe should have a suitable, delicious and good value drink for just about anyone. If you want a straight shot then great! A cup of nice sweet, approachable coffee - splendid! It isn't about elitism, snobbishness, but the need for progression at a rate that is above inflation!

Perfect and surely the correct way to approach the whole thing. Offer a choice of all levels without forcing those who do not want to move beyond the basic - but still very good - coffees to do so. Not unlike a decent wine or whisky shop in some ways.

[Hugo]

I've been struggling to pen a reasonable, constructive comment on this post. I think I'll fail.

The majority of catering businesses fail or are sold within a couple of years of opening. This always boils down to one, simple thing. The majority of catering businesses don't make enough money or worse, make catastrophic losses.

Coffee shops are no exception. Nearly every shop we (Sarah & I) viewed before we opened Relish nearly three years ago has, in that time, been bought, refurbished, opened then closed, sold or reposessed.
Their various incarnations will be forgotten. Their previous owners will retire hurt, poorer and hopefully wiser. Their customers will walk ten yards further and become regulars at the next shop. In most cases not enough of the market wanted whatever those shops sold or however they sold it.

If a given market doesn't want expensive coffee they won't buy it. However, there is always a market for expensive. Look at truffles, not everyones idea of delicious. They're virtually free to harvest, yet their rarity and novelty makes them hilariously expensive. You won't find them or more importantly their ardent enthusiasts in Bella Pasta or Wetherspoons. You will find lots of them in Le Manoir, El Bulli, The French Laundry...

We sell truffles in our deli. A couple of dozen a year. If we relied on them we'd obviously be closed by now. But they're just part of the mix of a delicatessen.

My point is, the right coffee shop could and should have rare and expensive coffees on the menu as part of the mix. If you don't want it don't buy it, it's not aimed at you, yet. Chances are, in the right place a handful of customers will want it and that's all it takes.

[tap]

for good coffee £3 was not enough. did pay rather happily though not everyday. more seldom £5 or close. a treat. but there is a story behind a coffee that price. a story you could spread. worth telling.
here the coffee is crap so drink home. wouldnt pay £3. many things are overpriced in advanced capitalist society. some are worth paying. point figuring out..

[SlowRain]

I hear what you guys are saying, but I don't like the message it's sending. Certain people are trying to take coffee in the same direction that North American restaurants have gone (I'm not sure about European ones). Restaurants, incorrectly, decided higher margins were the key to survival rather than finding ways generate more sales, either by selling more tables, speeding up table turnover, or else expanding upon non-table sales. Given the current state of North American restaurants, the market is ripe for someone to come along and offer healthy, delicious meals at an affordable price.

To get those higher margins, many restaurants decided to create a superficial atmosphere, including plate presentation, to enhance the dining experience. They also decided to cut costs on the quality of the food, but up the quantity of cheap filler foods, giving the air of value. North American restaurants are based on tricking the customer into thinking they're getting value by creating a false sense of high society. Even if the food tastes okay, a lot of what you are paying for is off the plate.

It's virtually impossible to go out in North America to sit down and have a delicious, healthy meal in a clean environment without having to overpay for it. I don't want to see coffee go that direction. Yes, certain coffee-shop owners would no doubt like it, just like restaurant owners like it, but I don't.

Asians have taken a different approach to eating out, for which I'm thankful. It's easy here to go almost anywhere and have a healthy, delicious meal at a reasonable price. There are higher class restaurants as well, but they are in the minority. Asians rely on making healthy and delicious meals almost as cheaply as you can at home...and selling lots of them. I used to live on a side street with a very nice Cantonese restaurant across the street that had semi-gourmet food (shrimp and bananas was my favorite) for 80TWD. 80TWD!!!. They did that by creating a healthy and delicious menu at a reasonable price...and by filling their tables. Granted, there are some dives, but my point is that good food doesn't have to be expensive.

I've recently started going to a new coffee shop. It's located on a side street with some other good-value restaurants, tea houses, and coffee shops. I've had some nice coffees there: Misty Valley, Beloya, some Sidamo and Harar, Cerro Las Ranas, and many more. This place does not serve c-grade coffee. Yet, she does it at an affordable price: two years in a previous location, and two years in this location. Perhaps not everyone knows what green coffee costs, but most of us on here do. Bruceb pointed out in his original post that, from a cost perspective, good coffee doesn't have to be expensive. None of us are fooled. This coffee shop owner isn't trying to fool anyone either. She's not trying to deceive anyone into thinking that a few grams of coffee is sacred or will make or break her business. It's all the extras that cost.

Fill your tables with people. Give them something super delicious that will make them choose your place. Give them a price that still makes it desirable to go out for. If you can't do that, then you're doing something wrong, or else the market is saturated.

[Hugo]

Oh dear god I want to scream. I can't say anything, it'll come out really rude.

[kingseven]

I think there is some clear cross communication going on, with the industry folks here kind of talking at cross purposes to others. Communicating this sort of thing is often extremely tricky online, where you can just invite someone to sit down for a coffee and to explain exactly what you are trying to accomplish.

It is becoming a bit like one those weird arguments where everyone fundamentally agrees but keeps arguing!

[bruceb]

I am really ashamed that I started this thread, but since not one person has bothered considering the original point I tried to make I guess it really doesn't matter.

[SlowRain]

I forgot this one from above:

Restaurants get away with murder when it comes to coffee, but then they'd rather turn a table then sell coffee and desert. Little incentive to do it properly.

I agree, and I disagree.

Restaurants do have bad coffee. However, it's not that they don't want to sell desert, no one wants to buy their extremely overpriced deserts. If they had something simple at a reasonable price, people would stick around. Most people love deserts. People just look at the price and walk away. Deserts are often priced at half the price of a meal.

[kingseven]

I am really ashamed that I started this thread, but since not one person has bothered considering the original point I tried to make I guess it really doesn't matter.

I think anyone involved in speciality coffee completely agrees with the initial point, and many people have tried to get people to think in terms of cup cost for raw materials rather than the annual coffee bill.

I think people often look at the £10,000 spent on coffee in a year and think how nice it would be if that had only been £9,000 so they'd have an extra grand in their pocket. Personally if I had a £10,000 coffee bill I would think how nice it would be if it was £15,000 because I'd sold so much more coffee!

However I think the raw materials cost, and overall GP on coffee, confuses and entices a lot of people starting cafes and leads them down a rocky road to ruin. It really is a separate topic - probably deserves its own thread! And I promise not to post something that will send the conversation the wrong way!

[Hugo]

Nice point.... I for one can't wait for you to open a cafe!

Which way would we like this conversation to go? I'm confused about the original point bruceb made. Can someone put us back on track?

[kingseven]

I believe Bruce's point was that when you break down a cup of coffee into its components and costs the beans - which have a huge impact on the experience of the customer - aren't a massive expense per cup - to the extent you could easily increase your blend's cost and quality without forcing the cup to become significantly more expensive. But I think he said it better than I just did.

[bruceb]

I believe Bruce's point was that when you break down a cup of coffee into its components and costs the beans - which have a huge impact on the experience of the customer - aren't a massive expense per cup - to the extent you could easily increase your blend's cost and quality without forcing the cup to become significantly more expensive. But I think he said it better than I just did.

Exactly. I never said anything was too expensive. I never said it was cheap or easy to run a shop. I never said or implied that any cup of coffee was or was not worth £x.xx. My idea was that instead of paying €10 for a kilo of LaVazza, Segafredo or even worse a local pizza restaurant, coffee house or bar could pay €15 or €20 per kilo for freshly and locally roasted beans and it would not substantially add to the cost per cup. That was based on the calculation in the magazine I read.

Rent and the cost of living in Verona, Italy is just about the same as in Frankfurt, Germany. Somehow the shop owners in Verona can serve a gorgeous espresso for between 90 cents and €1.20. What can anyone say?

I have watched many coffee shops and bars come and go and I can assure you that the reason they went under was not because of the price of the coffee they were serving. It was always a case of not doing the math up front, of ignoring the local market, of buying the Porsche and renting the fancy apartment before the first cup was served. This has nothing to do with coffee at all. It's just naivete and bad business practices.

My wife keeps pushing me to open a shop myself, but I know that I am nto a good businessman and that there is no market for better coffee here where I live. I would be willing to bet that there is not one person in a radius of 50 miles of here who would pay £3 for a cup of coffee unless it was on a dare or out of curiosity. I also know that if a shop serves good coffee and charges 50 cents more per cup than the shop down the street the masses will all go to the shop down the street and the first shop will go under in no time. Customers here don't care whether the coffee comes from Brazil or Vietnam as long as it is black and hot. What's more, I believe this attitude covers a large part of Northern Europe and the US. But if a shop started offering coffee made from good fresh beans without substantially increasing the price people might begin to notice the difference and begin to chose accordingly.

[Hugo]

We all live in hope...