Good coffee doesn't need to be expensive

[Walter]

Now for the next question; wouldn't it really improve the quality of the coffee JUST to use fresh beans? Many of the places to which I was referring have good machines, but extraction times are off because they don't adjust the grinders properly or often enough. Nonetheless, wouldn't the coffee still taste better if they weren't using stale beans?

Maybe where you live, Bruce, but in my neck of the woods I seriously doubt it would make much of a difference. The "average" coffee served here has this typical bitter, burnt & charry taste that stems from the remains of old coffee at the showerscreen together with the dirty portafilters and in most cases overheated water. That alone would spoil any good coffee used, even if the grinders would be cleaned/maintained regularly and properly.

Adjusting the grinds here, often is "Chefsache", the employees are not supposed to do that. Recently I learned from an owner that their grinder has been up and running for almost a decade now, only the grind had to be adjusted "every once in while", and the doser so that it provided the "correct" dose of 6g. But that was literally all they had done in those years.

[SlowRain]

Thanks Bombcup.

That's a good point being made about borrowed money. I think a lot of people get caught up in the atmosphere concept. It's okay to borrow money to buy a reasonably-priced, well-maintained building, but people go overboard renovating it into some sort of ideal, dream-like establishment. Clean, tasteful, and functional are more important. Renovations should be done with cash as it reduces paying interest on non-revenue-generating expenses. Renovating with cash also acts as a restraint as people get carried away when credit is involved. Same goes for equipment. Buy some well-maintained, good-quality, used equipment. The new stuff can come later when the business is well established and cash flow can sustain it. Otherwise, all the bad financial decisions by the owners have to be passed on to the customer--which doesn't add value--or else close the business.

[mattmills]

It is interesting to see so many comments regarding the prepartation of the coffee.
Personally i do not drink Espresso in cafes etc because 9/10 times it is buggered up, and destroys what good have been a good coffee.

A way to present good / great quality coffee and in an economical way is to provide more filter / french press coffee. It is far easier to present the atributes of said coffee in a more consitant manner.

[bruceb]

Hi Matt.
The problem is, people here only want espresso and espresso drinks. It's not because of the taste. It's a fad. I bet half the families in my little village here have Saeco, Siemens or other automatics. Most don't drink espresso as such, but let 250 ml water run through 7g of coffee and think it's wonderful. In a restaurant they want espresso or cappuccino, latte macchiato or something with syrup. If you offer them filter or French press they turn their noses up at it. There are exceptions, of course.

[Gouezeri]

I agree with Bruce on this, it's all part of the experience... People (obviously I am not referring to anyone here!) seem to care more about the machine the coffee comes out of, than the drink itself.

[mattmills]

Bruce,
I fully agree and this is a clear problem, although i am sure that this is the direction we need to go in, in order to address the original question.

Good espresso coffee is expensive not because of the coffee but the barista and training etc. Without wanting to put anyone out of work if you cut that cost and invest a small portion of that in a coffee we would be able to put consitantly on the table / counter a dam fine coffee and not expensively.

Just my 2 peneth

[SlowRain]

I think espresso is a better way for coffee shops to go rather than brewed coffee. Because of the cost and skill needed to buy, maintain, and use an espresso machine, it becomes a taste more difficult for people to duplicate at home, even with superautomatics. What's going to happen when people realize that a decent grinder and French press can duplicate the taste of most coffee shops--and at a much cheaper price. The coffee shop then just becomes a convenient meeting place with chairs and tables or else a place to go when they want to get out of the house for a bit. I'm also kind of hoping people will catch on and buy an AeroPress and hand grinder to take to their office.

[SlowRain]

See, this is what I'm getting at: http://money.ca.msn.com/savings-debt/gallery.aspx?cp-documentid=21511360 (I'm not sure how long the link will stay active).

[CakeBoy]

wouldn't it really improve the quality of the coffee JUST to use fresh beans? Many of the places to which I was referring have good machines, but extraction times are off because they don't adjust the grinders properly or often enough. Nonetheless, wouldn't the coffee still taste better if they weren't using stale beans?

In my opinion: barely.

This is what has frustrated the specilaity industry for so long. If all you had to do was just buy better coffee to get better drinks, with a very slight increase of costs, then everybody would likely do it.

Great coffee is utterly reliant on the preparation. I've tasted many a great blend turned to filth, with a worrying level of ease.

One of the biggest costs in a cup of coffee is the person who makes it. Training them, investing in them, retaining them and incentivising them all make a cup of coffee more expensive but also more delicious.

I have always found it hard to come to terms with the fact that for pennies in the cup, cafes using poor quality coffee could get themselves into something rather great in terms of beans. I assumed it was an educational thing.

Reading this has left me with the rather sombre realisation that if they are going to turn everything, including the very best of coffees, into the same "filth" it is easier to understand why they would stick with low grade beans - because they are only capable of producing a sows ear even when given silk. Whether that is a lack of training and guidance or that they simply do not care as it is easy to get away with is the next big question. Very depressing really.

[Jasonscheltus]

I think espresso is a better way for coffee shops to go rather than brewed coffee. Because of the cost and skill needed to buy, maintain, and use an espresso machine, it becomes a taste more difficult for people to duplicate at home, even with superautomatics. What's going to happen when people realize that a decent grinder and French press can duplicate the taste of most coffee shops--and at a much cheaper price. The coffee shop then just becomes a convenient meeting place with chairs and tables or else a place to go when they want to get out of the house for a bit. I'm also kind of hoping people will catch on and buy an AeroPress and hand grinder to take to their office.

Look obviously I disagree with a lot of what you're saying, but this to me is an interesting point..

What will happen when people realise that a decent grinder etc. etc.??

This kind of scenario has passed in Melbourne. In 2004,5,6, when I worked in a cafe in the CBD, lots of youngish accounts (newly affluent) would come in for their lattes etc. And actually a lot of them had grinders and espresso machines at home. They knew that it was more expensive to come into the cafe and get a coffee from us, we certainly didn't pretend it wasn't, we'd help them with the grind size etc...

So why did they come in?

They're not stupid, nor stupidly wealthy, they actually LIKED the experience of coming into a cafe with their work mates to gossip and wait 10 minutes for their take away latte.

I personally LIKE the experience of going to cafes. Even if it just to drink tea (when the coffee is bad) and read. Done the costing on coffee? Do the costing on a tea bag! You might not have $3 for the experience and service, but I and a lot of other people do.

EDIT: To somehow bring this back to the OP....it's not just the "value" that you talk about (where you don't pay for fancy fittings and nice tablecloths) but also quality, convenience, and a large social aspect that influence people's choice to visit cafes.

[CakeBoy]

I personally LIKE the experience of going to cafes. Even if it just to drink tea (when the coffee is bad) and read.

Ditto on liking the whole vibe and drinking tea if the coffee is bad. Totally aside of the whole coffee quality discussion, sometimes it is just somewhere to relax in the right surroundings and soak up the ambience.

[leecb]

I agree with the last two points, especially in a city like London where more and more we live to work rather than working to live, there is less and less social engagement as people spend their lives working and commuting. Cafes provide an opportunity to connect with others which at £2-3 a cup is not unreasonable.
If the environment is comfortable then the coffee being drinkable (which obviously most people are unable to judge) is a welcome bonus. I believe that this, added to the return to interest in small local providers of all sorts of services and the increasing demand for quality, is the reason for the surge in independent cafes here.
The internet, which has led to isolation in many ways, has also helped people to find out about new small ventures much quicker than in the past which is really helping these small high quality businesses to thrive.

[Sharpjd]

On the original point...correct, good coffee doesn't have to be expensive...and isn't. The proof is there with a decent number of places in the UK serving great coffee at a sensible price i.e. £2-3.

A lot has been said in this thread I totally disagree with but I think the growing number of UK places currently serving reasonably priced great coffee is point enough.

Slow Rain...you've clearly given running a coffee shop a lot of thought, you really should consider opening your own place and putting your ideas into action. I can honestly say opening a coffee shop is one of the most rewarding and enjoyable things I've ever done.

[SlowRain]

This kind of scenario has passed in Melbourne. In 2004,5,6, when I worked in a cafe in the CBD, lots of youngish accounts (newly affluent) would come in for their lattes etc. And actually a lot of them had grinders and espresso machines at home. They knew that it was more expensive to come into the cafe and get a coffee from us, we certainly didn't pretend it wasn't, we'd help them with the grind size etc...

So why did they come in?

They're not stupid, nor stupidly wealthy, they actually LIKED the experience of coming into a cafe with their work mates to gossip and wait 10 minutes for their take away latte.

I understand what you're getting at, but it's not quite what I was getting at. I'm specifically talking about the brewed-coffee trend that may (or may not) be starting. Espresso isn't easy. Those people may have come to the shop for help--and been willing to pay for it with their coffee purchase--as much as anything else.

What I'm talking about is something as simple as French press. That's why I'm surprised coffee shops are even entertaining the idea of brewed coffee.

Plus, I've always been under the impression that Australia has reasonably-priced coffee and that Australians, in general, wouldn't stand for overpriced coffee. Am I wrong in assuming that?

A good point has been made about the coffee-shop-as-local-pub. That's exactly what I'd like to see, too. I like coffee shops, too. I just don't want to be overcharged for that experience. Consumers shouldn't have to go to a place with an expensive address and expensive furniture & fixtures and expensive leasehold improvements just for a cup of good coffee with their friends. There is value in the convenience of having a place to go, there is value in the beverage in the cup, charge them for that. Don't overcharge them for things that don't add value.

Did anyone look at that link? Coffee has been lumped in with some other annoying things where we are all being overcharged on. Some people here don't see it--or don't want to acknowledge it--because it's their livelihood. Is a banker objective enough to say that people are not being overcharged on bank fees? Is a beverage manufacturer objective enough to say that customers are not being overcharged on bottled water? Is an accountant on the Golden Mile objective enough to say that clients are not being overcharged on accounting fees? There is an inherent conflict of interest there, wouldn't you say?

I think coffee pricing is just about at the breaking point, if it isn't already. That link seems to suggest the same. I shudder to think of shops trying to go any higher, yet there always seems to be someone trying to push the envelop. We have $25-million actors and skyrocketing movie tickets. How much longer is that sustainable? I feel the same way about coffee.

[Sharpjd]

To overcharge means to charge more than the advertised/agreed price. Do you mean charge more than you would like to pay?...in which case go elsewhere (I'm not being flippant, but it really is that simple). I can think of approx 20 places in the UK that serve excellent espresso and I wouldn't have an issue with the price at any of them. When I think of paying over 3 pounds for a pint I'm more than happy to pay 2 something for a great flat white.

The reality is cafes can't charge what they wish. You can't spend mega amounts on a refit and then say I'll need to charge 5 pounds for a latte to cover the costs...that's simply not how economics work...it's the profits that pay for the refit not the price on the menu for an individual drink. As a cafe owner I can say we are not all powerful when it comes to how much we can charge, how much rents are and how much money we have to invest in interiors. If the price is wrong customers will go elsewhere, rents are decided by the market and the general economics of the shop determine budgets for refitting etc. There's huge competition out there...if you get it wrong customers have plenty of other options.

The bottom line is customers are the all powerful ones, not the cafe owners. They decide where they spend their money and therefore which places survive and which don't.