Some coffee experiences in Italy

Is it actually possible to find a good shot?

Moderators: GreenBean, Gouezeri, bruceb, CakeBoy

Some coffee experiences in Italy

Postby bruceb » Mon Oct 29, 2007 10:55 am

I just returned from a "semi-political" journey to the le Marche region of Italy. This region, on the Adriatic coast, is mostly agricultural with extensive vineyards and olive orchards. I was there as a representative of our village, visiting our new "partner village" and had a wonderful opportunity to have an inside view rather than that of a tourist. I was very impressed with the amount of culture and "historical awareness" demonstrated by our hosts, not to mention the excellent food and wine we enjoyed.

I also had plenty of time to visit a number of bars, try the coffee and visit with the baristas a bit. An occasional grappa added to the joy of the experience. 8)

To generalise: With only one exception, every espresso I had was good. Some were exceptionally good, all were very palatable. None were as good as my best at home and none were as good as I have enjoyed at TMC meets, but that's not surprising. There is nowhere within a radius of 100km from my home that I can get as good a shot as the ones I had in the area around Ancona.

All of the baristas knew when the coffee they were serving had been roasted, or they could look on the packet and find out. The oldest was 6 days, the youngest was 3 days. None could tell the country of origin, saying that the roaster would not reveal his "secrets." The coffees tasted to me as if they were mostly Columbian or Brazilian. In one or two I thought I could taste a prominence of robusta, but I'm not sure about that. None of the coffee beans were roasted very darkly. All were roasted locally, either in Ancona, Pesaro or in Ascoli Piceno, all within a radius of 20-30km and were delivered twice weekly by the roaster.

All cafés had at least 2 grinders, one as a backup or for decaf. The grinders are serviced 2-3 times per year I was told.

Most of the machines were La Cimbali 2 or 3 group Dosatrons, although there was one Gaggia 4 group and a couple of La Spaziale 3 groups. All were meticulously clean, the baristas cleaned and dried the baskets after use (but not between individual shots) and all machines were backflushed at least once daily. Not one tamper was to be seen aside from the plastic things on the grinders and those were used by all to level the coffee. The shots all varied between 20 and 30 seconds and I saw the grinders being adjusted regularly. The cups were heated and the espresso just hot enough to be drinkable immediately. If it had been more than 10 minutes since the machine had been used the barista pulled a flushing shot before making the first espresso.

The concept of "microfroth" does not belong to the Italian coffee scene as far as I could tell. Milk is frothed with big, gloppy bubbles and the foam varies from dry to very wet. Latte art was limited to an "apple" that may have been intentional or an accident, I couldn't tell for certain. Most cafés used whole milk (3.5%) and milk was often refrothed, usually in very large (1L) jugs. Cappucinos and double espressi are always served in the smaller 3-oz. cappuccino cups, usually bearing the logo of the roaster. Espressi are usually, but not always, served with a small glass of tap water.

I often received a rather amused look when I drank an espresso without sugar.

Summarizing my experience, just as in Rome or Venice, I found the coffee very enjoyable. I could go almost anywhere and get a good espresso. I did notice that there are now bars with Schaerer or Cimbali superautos and I avoided those. I was told that some coffee companies are pushing pads, but so far they have not caught on. I guess some people are going from the traditional moka pot to pad machines in the home. I did have one espresso that was not very good, a bit watery with thin, cream-colored crema. The barista noticed that I didn't like it and offered to make me another, but I declined as I was already over-caffeinated anyway. The rest of the espressi were good, hot enough and with thick, dark crema. I think I could get used to living in a place like that. :wink:
Three Francesconi (CMA) espresso machines - Rossi, San Marco, LaCimbali, Faema and 2 Mazzer Major grinders- CoffeeTech Maggionlino, Hottop, Alpenröst and HW Precision roasters.
I decided I needed a bit of a change so I roasted some Monsooned Malabar. That was a change!
Image
User avatar
bruceb
 
Posts: 5361
Joined: Sun Apr 04, 2004 12:49 pm
Location: Northern Hesse, Germany

RE: Some coffee experiences in Italy

Postby Gadders » Mon Oct 29, 2007 11:36 am

Wow nice one bruce, a fantastic insight into italian espresso, thanks! :)
User avatar
Gadders
 
Posts: 1220
Joined: Sat Jun 10, 2006 11:09 am
Location: Nottingham

RE: Some coffee experiences in Italy

Postby CakeBoy » Mon Oct 29, 2007 3:33 pm

Welcome back :). Quite an insight Bruce, and great that you enjoyed your trip. It's interesting to me that the Italians (seemingly) always take sugar in espresso. I wonder if that has its roots in there being bitterness present historically in Italian coffee. A lot of coffee in larger cities appeared to me as fairly poorly prepared during my visits many years ago. Clearly that was not the case in the rural locations you visited, though perhaps tradition dictates it should be taken with sugar and people continue accordingly without giving much thought as to why that might be so. It's certainly nice to know that coffee is alive and pretty well in rural Italy :)
www.CakeBoy.co.uk
International muffin blagger

Iberital L'Anna 1 Gp Hand-Fill | Wega Orion 2 Gp | Bezzera 1 Gp | Rancilio Audrey PID | Spidem Trevi
Iberital MC2 Timed | Macap M4 DS & MXA DS | Mazzer SJ | Starbucks Barista Grinder (Dualit E60/Solis 166)
Pinhalense 2x500g Gas Batch/Sample Roaster | Gene Cafe | IMEX CR-100
Aerobie | eSantos | Zassenhaus | Bodum P/Over | Chemex | Hario Woodneck | Timer Filter
User avatar
CakeBoy
 
Posts: 10006
Joined: Tue Oct 18, 2005 10:43 pm
Location: Oxfordshire, England

RE: Some coffee experiences in Italy

Postby bruceb » Mon Oct 29, 2007 4:58 pm

Regarding sugar, I think it related to one's attitude towards espresso. In Italy (and in my home) espresso is short and sweet. I never normally drink it without sugar. It's more like a quick sweet than the traditional mug of coffee. I drink cappuccinos and other kinds of coffee without sugar, especially if I'm having them with a piece of cake (ahem) and my morning latte is very sweet.

I think that in Italy it is roughly the same. In Spain and Portugal people also drink espresso with sugar. It's like a piece of candy, really. If you like it without sugar that's fine. I don't see it as a sign of anything in particular if you do or don't use sugar. For me espresso really only shines if it is somewhat sweetened. I only drink it without when I'm trying to determine the quality of the shot.
Three Francesconi (CMA) espresso machines - Rossi, San Marco, LaCimbali, Faema and 2 Mazzer Major grinders- CoffeeTech Maggionlino, Hottop, Alpenröst and HW Precision roasters.
I decided I needed a bit of a change so I roasted some Monsooned Malabar. That was a change!
Image
User avatar
bruceb
 
Posts: 5361
Joined: Sun Apr 04, 2004 12:49 pm
Location: Northern Hesse, Germany

Postby GeorgeW » Mon Oct 29, 2007 6:56 pm

Interesting post Bruce. Your preferences re sugar in espresso, mirror mine. I see espresso as dessert in a small cup really, and find it difficult to drink without sugar.

I think I may be of Italian descent, and it's certainly true that my hands itch at the sight of a rounded wobbly bit. What better proof can you have. 8)
Super Jolly
Hottop
Aerobie
Various sizes of Moka stove-tops
Failed Pavoni Europiccola owner.
Zass
User avatar
GeorgeW
 
Posts: 2102
Joined: Wed Nov 02, 2005 10:19 am
Location: fife scotland

Postby kingseven » Mon Oct 29, 2007 8:09 pm

I think the sugar also helps when a shot has snuck in around 17-20 seconds and is a bit sour, as shots can quite easily be in many places I've had coffee in Italy.
http://www.jimseven.com

I'll never own too many items with which to enjoy coffee.
User avatar
kingseven
 
Posts: 2118
Joined: Tue Feb 24, 2004 12:04 pm
Location: London

Re: RE: Some coffee experiences in Italy

Postby CakeBoy » Tue Oct 30, 2007 3:25 pm

bruceb wrote:I drink cappuccinos and other kinds of coffee without sugar, especially if I'm having them with a piece of cake (ahem) ....


I would like to join in intellectually with the conversation, but actually cannot get further than saying ....... CAKE! :P

I'll get my coat/marzipan ........... :oops: :roll:
www.CakeBoy.co.uk
International muffin blagger

Iberital L'Anna 1 Gp Hand-Fill | Wega Orion 2 Gp | Bezzera 1 Gp | Rancilio Audrey PID | Spidem Trevi
Iberital MC2 Timed | Macap M4 DS & MXA DS | Mazzer SJ | Starbucks Barista Grinder (Dualit E60/Solis 166)
Pinhalense 2x500g Gas Batch/Sample Roaster | Gene Cafe | IMEX CR-100
Aerobie | eSantos | Zassenhaus | Bodum P/Over | Chemex | Hario Woodneck | Timer Filter
User avatar
CakeBoy
 
Posts: 10006
Joined: Tue Oct 18, 2005 10:43 pm
Location: Oxfordshire, England

RE: Re: RE: Some coffee experiences in Italy

Postby Aadje » Tue Oct 30, 2007 7:33 pm

Somehow I get the feeling you kinda like Cake . . . :roll: ;)
Bits 'n' pieces . . .

This week I am mainly saying hello to old friends
User avatar
Aadje
 
Posts: 3363
Joined: Wed Jan 25, 2006 11:21 pm
Location: Dubai

RE: Re: RE: Some coffee experiences in Italy

Postby CakeBoy » Tue Oct 30, 2007 7:53 pm

Who me? :shock: :wink:
www.CakeBoy.co.uk
International muffin blagger

Iberital L'Anna 1 Gp Hand-Fill | Wega Orion 2 Gp | Bezzera 1 Gp | Rancilio Audrey PID | Spidem Trevi
Iberital MC2 Timed | Macap M4 DS & MXA DS | Mazzer SJ | Starbucks Barista Grinder (Dualit E60/Solis 166)
Pinhalense 2x500g Gas Batch/Sample Roaster | Gene Cafe | IMEX CR-100
Aerobie | eSantos | Zassenhaus | Bodum P/Over | Chemex | Hario Woodneck | Timer Filter
User avatar
CakeBoy
 
Posts: 10006
Joined: Tue Oct 18, 2005 10:43 pm
Location: Oxfordshire, England

RE: Re: RE: Some coffee experiences in Italy

Postby lukas » Tue Oct 30, 2007 9:12 pm

Grrr, always now when somebody says "cake" I only think "cakey" ... grrr :evil:
Lukas

This week I like my coffee luke-warm.
--
Newest kit: Ghibli R-15
User avatar
lukas
 
Posts: 2798
Joined: Mon Jul 25, 2005 8:41 pm
Location: Germany

RE: Re: RE: Some coffee experiences in Italy

Postby Sarion » Tue Oct 30, 2007 9:40 pm

Great read, Bruce! Thanks! Can't wait to find the opportunity to do my own exploring in Italy someday :-)
tell me I`m mad
you're a fine one to decide

Izzo Alex Duetto iii, Mazzer Mini E mod A, Gene Cafe, Grindenstein
Sarion
 
Posts: 424
Joined: Fri Sep 15, 2006 2:04 pm
Location: Zwolle

Postby BazBean » Wed Oct 31, 2007 7:13 pm

Precise and informative …. Expected nothing less , great review.

Having recently returned from Naples area myself I found similar. Some Italian do get very confused when a pale face guy has an opinion or dare I say it a little knowledge on the subject.
I did encounter a “how dare" attitude occasionally especially coming from an Englishman from one place but most were excellent and just about all were ristretto
even if quality of bean was lacking the passion and atmposphere more than made up for it and importmantly the majoroity of Baristi were proud and respected.
Knowledge can be absorbed, but passion cannot be taught !

La Spaziale S5,
La Spaziale EK 2 Group
k30 mahlkonig
Mazzer Jolly, Futurmat , MC 5 Iberital,
Brasilia RR, Macap Deli Grinder.
A growing Tamper collection
(Plus my own playground for the above- A Shop)
User avatar
BazBean
 
Posts: 1635
Joined: Sun Sep 25, 2005 6:41 am
Location: Scarborough UK

Postby Merlino » Fri Nov 02, 2007 10:10 am

Naples is a great place to drink espresso, I dare say it's the coffee capital of Italy... My most memorable espresso was in a little bar in an alley in Palermo (Sicily). It was sirupy and sweet and I for the life of me couldn't remember how to get to the bar when I wanted to visit it the next day!

Re the sugar I think it's partly tradition (Italians LOVE those!) but it's also because they have a bigger sweet tooth that we North Europeans do, especially in the South where the pastries are as sweet as Arab candy.
Merlino
 
Posts: 12
Joined: Tue Oct 30, 2007 5:07 pm
Location: Groningen, The Netherlands


Return to Places to drink coffee

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 70 guests

cron