Shortage of beans worries Starbucks

[Joey]

Hmmm, but still, as a gastronomer (or in your case roaster), one should be happy if the competition is not so good, that makes it easier for us to convince people how good the real speciality coffee is, as the contrast is bigger... just a tiny thought...I don't fear Starbucks, I always experience people tasting my coffee saying "wow, that's much better then..."

They might sell crap overroasted coffee, but I still believe that's not what the people are going there for.
BTW, everywhere I went in the US the coffee is burnt, East coast, West coast....even the Hines Public Market Place everyone speaks so good about (very nice folks!! cool 5 group La Marzocco which I was allowed to froth with), but the coffee was totally burnt!!!
I have the feeling that whole America thinks coffee has to be burnt, and they say that's the "Italian Style".
I just don't know who thought that first - the others or Starbucks? He, he...
There were just 3 out of about 20 different coffee shops that didn't have burnt coffee....
In the US people start prefering some smaller, owner managed shops over the huge chain for the reason of quality and more personal customer service... in Europe the Starbucks hipe just started, in the US the reputation is already tarnished...this wave will swash to Europe, too, sooner or later.

joey

[Steve]

I dont fear them I fear for the future of gormet coffee if the public think char$'s is good. I think I have said it before but if you feed shit to some one for long enough they get a taste for shit.

[Joey]

the moment I wrote about "no fear" I was afraid you might refer it to you personally - (I was just too lazy to change it) I meant that in a very common way, more from the gastronomer/coffee shop view...sorry if I was stepping on toes here.

I know what you mean. (Maybe it was Strbcks who made all the other roasters in the US roast so dark, too.)
But even if they do like the latte macchiato from them - if you make them a macchiato with a very good, full bodied coffee, not burnt, don't you think they notice the difference?

I also think the rumor about their coffee beeing burnt is growing.
AND, Starbucks is for the American. The Americans who need franchise chains to feel secure to get the same with the same price every day. If US tourists are in Vienna, they go to Starbucks and McDonalds because they know what they get, although we have excellent food here.
Europeans I think are different.

For example Strbcks has a very hard time in Vienna. They are too expensive and they don't let people smoke - the last one is breaking their neck here.
After one (or is it two years now?) they have already closed a location in a very busy street!
Did you ever hear about a SB closing before? You see?
It might be big in the US, but I'm not so sure if it will grow as big here.
McDonalds was the only chain that survived in Austria. Burger King wasn't able to make it the first time and has a slow second start now. Subway - no liking here. Pizza Hut? Gone already!!!

As SB is not growing rapidly I think it can't harm the gourmet-coffee here. Like the cheap tea bags in the supermarkets can't harm the few tea-speciality shops. Even the customer with the cheap supermaket-tea knows there is a better one, it's just a question of how often he affords the more expensive speciality.

BTW, the location I'm waiting for is another SBs that doesn't make the numbers
joey

[phil]

Regrettably Joey the UK seems to lap up uncritically all of those things which Vienna so wisely despises

[Joey]

Oh, I see. I still think Effocs can kick SB's butts with his high quality coffees (Looking forward to taste them in August
Thumbs up for England!
joey

[mattb]

WOW! Being the new guy I didn't realise that Starbucks would create such intense debate. It reminds us how passionate about coffee we are. This may be going a little off track, in what I'm about to say. Have you ever read a book that was brilliant, and then a film comes out based on that book, and the characters in that film aren't how you imagined or the scenery and places not how you imagined neither. May be that is the problem with Starbucks, it is trying to match such a huge audience from the not so well coffee educated, and potentially not so bothered anyway, to the people that live for coffee and demand the best. Some areas it clearly wins for some, and for others fails miserably. It has created a universal grind (god for bid) for the modern world if you like, hence why it has been so successful.
However, any coffee business is good business as it educates people on coffee whether to encourage them to buy better coffee, make it apart of their everyday life or to encourage others.
Matt
PS. Just thought, isn't instant coffee the ruination of the coffee industry?

[mattmills]

Eeffoc... no offence taken, dont worry.

Firstly with regards to the price. What was said was direct words from the producer. (ok it is generalised) most coffee bought is through traders, and whilst i was at origin, a comment that was very common wass the fact that most European roasters (traders) will not pay the same prices as Starbucks. We pay the market price, but at these prices many farmers are leaving their farmers to rot, allowing many families without work or much chance at all.
By paying these prices... that most of us are not able to pay no harm is being done, only to raise the bar and encourage farmers to produce better coffees (as this pays off). With the market at the moment, thisis vry important, as many farmers are pushing crap our way, as it does not make financial sense to put the extra work in for less money.

I couldnt agree more, you pay for what you get, and a lot of the ethical stuff i dislike, but starbucks are not paying over the odds for average coffees, these are the best that are availiable.

With regards to lip service... i would prefer real heart felt action... but not people starving, dying and the loss of family histories and cultures.

Overroasted coffee in itself is not good for the industry, however, in the UK market where 80% is instant, any movement to roast and ground is aproved. Plus it may be over roasted but it is real, and people become more willing to experiment, leading them to knowing more... benifiting the rest of the market

Ofcourse it is far more complex than this, but their position in this should not be dismissed.

I am sorry for this defense, but before i was in El Salvador and Costa Rica i was very anti Starbucks.... very!!! But seeing some of the probelms, and what is happening, plus the attitude towards starbucks from their point of view it really changed my perspective. I am not a fan of starbucks (at all) however i can see some of the good that they have done.

(I also have to admit to being highly argumentative and if the debate wass the other way round i would ague the opposite) So my appologises for any buttons pressed.

[Steve]

I know my main trader will pay the best price going, but only for the best coffee's, and that was direct from a farmer too, so I think your generalizing (but i'll let you off )

I've got to disagree with

it may be over roasted but it is real

Real but nothing like quality coffee, so how can this be good for the industry.

The buttons are pressed regualry (I need anger managment ) so I'm pleased you didnt take it all wrong because thats all it is a debate (which I'm quite enjoying )

[mattmills]

There are traders that are willing to pay good prices, but the quanties we are talking about may differ. It was quite incredible to see the quantities being talked about

[ianboughton]

MattB, I don't wish to take issue too much on Starbucks, particularly as I hope we meet soon (I'm barely ten miles from you - send me a message to say which site you're on!) but with regard to instant coffee being the ruination of the industry, Nescafe will tell you, and said in their recent forum, that 'growth in coffee is thanks to the soluble sector, and it is our obligation to continue that'. It is their argument that a ready-to-make beverage is the one that opens doors to markets in the developing world.

Let us therefore give thanks to Nescafe.

Good grief, what have I just said????!!!
-IanB

[cleverdic]

I wanted to pick up on Joeys comment about coffee being burnt all the way across the USA.

I'm currently devouring the Schomer book "espresso professional techniques". Schomer is based in Seattle running the Vivace cafe. In his book, he clearly distinguishes between the northern Italian roast which he believes to be the best and the southern Italian which is darker roasted, probably to the same level as Starbucks.

He does a lot of education and training and so I would have thought that some of the better cafe shops particularly in the west coast would feature this lighter roast.
Just a thought

Richard

[phil]

I suspect you're right Richard. Certainly when I read Schomer's book a year ago I recall him talking about N. Italian roasts. Also the gourmet market as evidenced through a.c seems to have cottoned on to the fact that too dark is bad.

[Joey]

... Schomer is based in Seattle running the Vivace cafe. ...He does a lot of education and training and so I would have thought that some of the better cafe shops particularly in the west coast would feature this lighter roast.

Oh, I forgot - I mentioned him before but then I edited it again because I didn't wanna sound to bigmouthed about the places I have been exploring coffee all over the US... but I would love to comment that a bit:

Schomers Vivace Vita roast is the best I have met in the USA, deffinitely. The Dolce is more boring. I don't know if he sells it to other stores.
The other good ones are the Honolulu Coffee Company Espresso blend and Alterras Espresso roast.
Intelligentsia Black Cat was too dark for me - almost burnt, deffinitely too dark.
Every Starbucks I have been tasted burnt, too, worst was in New York on Broadway.
Dean and DeLuca = totally burnt, really ugly
Funny though that the best Starbucks was the original and first shop ever at Pikes Market Place in Seattle. looks totally different, too, no seating there. Have you ever seen the original brown logo? TOW the boobies?
Seattles Best Coffee, well, I would just call it Seattles Coffee.
And then I visited many small unfamous coffee shops from West to East where I can't tell you the names anymore, sorry. Unfortunately I didn't manage to visit Zoka in Seattle. The time was too short.

So again, Vivace has a superb coffee, a nice crew and nice coffee shop.
Schomer is a good coffee guy. I can only speak good about him.

Joey

[Joey]

Back to St*rbucks: here is a truly regular customer:
His goal is to visit every SB in the world, if possible
http://www.starbuckseverywhere.net/
and here are just the pics from the shops he visited in London:
http://www.starbuckseverywhere.net/UnitedKingdom.htm

Matt, if he ever comes to the UK again, will he get a free cup of coffee when he comes to Oxford? >grin<
joey

PS: I just looked at his "wacky" photos from the start page - forget the free coffee

[mattb]

Hey,
me give out free coffee, we call them samples at Starbucks. Right now I am distributing samples of freshly ground Kenya to our customers to try and encourage them to drink fresh coffee at home. Plus educating them that coffee is great over ice! Especially Ethiopia Sidamo!
Can I also point out that my store has a manual machine, which is great for coffee and a headache for me trying to train partners to brew correct shots.
On the subject of instant coffee it certainly has formed the basis of coffee knowledge in the UK. In the past beans were considered for the upper classes with their pots of Lyons coffee! So yeah, Nescafe should have some respect in as much as this is the coffee that is best to be avoided where ever possible, but keep a jar just in case.
Take care
Matt