If you think Belgium is bad for espresso, you should try...

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If you think Belgium is bad for espresso, you should try...

Postby Belgik » Sat May 07, 2005 4:22 pm

...the coffee on Korean cargo ships.
I occasionally board ships as part of my job, and drinking coffee on Korean or Chinese ships is always an "interesting" experience.
Usually, the coffee is a glass of microwaved water, wherein a few teaspoonfuls of Nescafé and powdered milk are added.
Santé! :shock:
And if you think that is bad, you should try the french fried potatoes! I recently had deep-freeze fries "prepared" in the microwave! All this while the Captain, at whose table I was invited, was having Kim Chee and other good Korean food... He was being gracious: thought us "westerners" would not like their food!
BTW, please do not construe this as "criticism" of our Korean friends. Some are excellent professional seamen, and very nice people. It's just that there are cultural differences...coffee doesn't seem to be part of the Korean scene...
I remember the Chinese new year dinner I once had on a Taiwan-Chinese vessel (at the time it was loading tree-trunks floating in a river in the Ivory Coast). We ate at least a dozen different courses of excellent Chinese food, accompanied by a succession of 250 cc "Duralex" type glasses of ... Cognac.
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Star Wars!

Postby Belgik » Sun May 22, 2005 5:00 pm

Star Wars....Oops, misspelled that, it should read Starbucks!
Ok here's the story. Went to London n had my first ever Starbucks coffee, in the little pavillion right in the middle of St. Catherine's dock. Now, I've read long threads about Starbucks on an American Porsche forum, so that elicited my interest, even though I didn't really have an idea what exactly it was they were all talking about, because there is no Starbucks in Belgium...
So, in spite of what I'd read in this forum (about Starbucks), I needed to try them, so as to get my bearings, remember, I wrote earlier that I didn't have any references in the espresso world and was wondering how good or bad is the coffe I make at home...
OK. I had coffee from two different Starbucks (the other one was when having our mediation in the Lloyds of London building...). I now know why there is no Starbucks in Belgium: in spite of Raf's true enough statement that there is no espresso culture in Belgium, the simple fact is that Starbucks would go bankrupt over here! There is no way they can compete against an average to good quality Belgian "café filtre". Starbucks truly and veritably sucks. Even though the virgin-white crema topping on the cardboard packaged double-strength cappuchino (or whatever it was, it certainly could not wake the dead!) was foamy enough to float a pound sterling coin upon, the insipidness of both crema and brew itself were absolutely resounding. Yuck! Two quid, too! And spare me the outright lie of "careful: very hot contents" etcetera...

I'm much afraid that today's London is much more halfway accross the Atlantic ocean and drifting yet further...the waitress at the very fashionable Canary Wharf "Gaucho" suggesting I might better have my (Argentine) steak a bit well done rather than the rare I wanted, and that it might be a bit difficult to cut my ribeye steak as there are veins of grease...the mere suggesting of side-dishes I didn't want...and if I was allright...OK...I should have told her that we eat horsemeat, over here! Oops, how gauche, sorry!

BTW, the Eurostar was on time, and comfortable. Of course I didn't really like the tunnel blackness...worried about getting wet feet 'n all...
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Postby Marcello » Sun May 22, 2005 8:28 pm

I have to agree with Belgik. I've been at many Starbucks. Many in the States, Great Britain, Hong Kong, Australia, Malaysia, many, many Starbucks. And every time I've been disappointed in their espressos. They can do some great sweet drinks, with chocolat, caramel, etc. Their espresso and ristretto however are absolutely not up to par. Even the smallest and almost bankrupt bar in Italy makes a better one. Maybe that's why I've never seen a Starbucks in Italy.

In some big cities in Australia, like Sydney, they really don't need a Starbucks. There are enough good bars there, where some pretty good stuff is served.
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Postby Raf » Mon May 23, 2005 3:11 pm

By the way, Belgik, I noticed a new café in the centre of Bxls, near the Bourse: it's called Kafé Sara something, I believe. I was tempted to visit it, but when I saw the superautos I wasn't in such a hurry any more.
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Re: Star Wars!

Postby Gouezeri » Mon May 23, 2005 5:08 pm

Belgik wrote:Ok here's the story. Went to London n had my first ever Starbucks coffee, in the little pavillion right in the middle of St. Catherine's dock.

So at least the view was nice! St Katherine's used to be one of the most expensive marinas in the UK... doesn't actually look that bad (expensive) these days surprisingly, in fact it is probably cheaper per day than parking a car.

Two quid, too!

Whomever gave you the impression that London was cheap! Still, you could have had a decent pint for that! ;-)

I'm much afraid that today's London is much more halfway accross the Atlantic ocean and drifting yet further...the waitress suggesting I might better have my steak well done rather than rare...OK...I should have told her that we eat horsemeat, over here!

Ok, as somebody with his feet placed firmly on both sides of the channel, I'll respond to this... In my experience meat is always over cooked in the UK (and always under in Fr no matter what you ask for, not had much experience in Belgique) unless the restaurant is notably french/european in style... even then they still often cater for the majority... the notion of "saignant" is not well known or understood (forget steak tartare, you'll only get the sauce over here ;-) ). So this has little to do with our cousins the other side of the pond... if anything, we were probably over-cooking our meat well before they were ;-)
The UK is generally not very service orientated (ask PaulT on this one) but people have realised that this is probably good for business and most training/research in the field does come from the US, so that may explain your reception a little.
From a food point of view, generally, I'd say London is widely multi-cultural much more so than anywhere else in Europe and even to the detriment of "local" cuisine. That said, I can't think of anywhere that does anything "chevaline" and even the suggestion would probably have you in the Tower of London... hypocritical...? Nah... horseys are all cute and sweet, everyone knows that ;-) Next time Belgik... you want jellied eels and a decent pint of bitter, that'll set you right! ;-)

I don't know whether it is the case in Belgium or not, but the French are fixated about the UK (and paranoid about France) becoming a mini US and most of the time it is no more valid than anywhere else in western Europe, the only difference being in the UK we speak kind of the same language some of the time, but with the correct spelling and grammar :lol:

BTW, the Eurostar was on time, and comfortable.

Ah, so it is me, I'm jinxed then... last time I was 2 hours late and sat with a party of 30 koreans all eating pre-packed warm sushi... an olfactory experience not to be repeated.

On a more serious note... I wonder whether anybody (on TMC) anywhere has had a decent espresso from *$? Maybe it is a bit like asking for a decent meal from the golden arches, the staff aren't that different.
Or even.... having a meal in Beligum served without "frites" :lol:
"À la fin de l'envoi...."
D
Ps. Next time we'll give you some decent addresses Belgik!
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Re: Star Wars!

Postby Raf » Mon May 23, 2005 5:18 pm

gouezeri wrote:I don't know whether it is the case in Belgium or not, but the French are fixated about the UK (and paranoid about France) becoming a mini US


I do think the UK are becoming a sort of mini US. The two party political system (okay, you got that first!). The effects of Thatcherism and Blairism on public services, the food habits/obesitas stats. The war in Iraq. Hm... :?
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Postby Gouezeri » Mon May 23, 2005 5:52 pm

As much as I would like to respond to that (and there are counter arguments to all of the above), this really isn't the place and I doubt that Phil would approve. Suffice to say that the US has an extensive influence (both positive and negative) that cannot/should not be ignored and this is wide spread. But the influence can also be seen to be both ways... this is espresso we are (were) discussing after all.
Et en dernier... tu ne me verras pas parler de "courriel," "oueb" ni pour ceux qui sont "fans," de jazzmans, c'est une batardisation térrible (et la liste est encore longue)... Du moins, vous les Belges savent compter au-dessus de 16... sans faire de calcul... ;-)
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Postby phil » Mon May 23, 2005 6:13 pm

gouezeri wrote:Nah... horseys are all cute and sweet, everyone knows that :wink:


So are bunnies and you can buy those in supermarkets!

Raf - I think there are a number of areas in which we can produce a counter argument, but I think if I were to do so in public it would be at the risk of insulting our transatlantic chums. Personally I and any Brit I know with at least half a brain detests the idea that we might be seen as a mini US, and I find it appalling that people can produce analyses of this type attempting to deduce the nature of a populace by examining the behaviour of the morons in Westminster :evil:
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Postby Gouezeri » Mon May 23, 2005 7:20 pm

Getting drawn in... argh... can't help myself.... :lol:
Phil... politicians are always a bunch of &^%$ which may be something we can all agree on... the more pervasive problem is the media which thrives upon this kind of baseless stereotypical drivel... because it sells... as someone who spends a lot of time in both the UK and France, I end up always being "l'étranger" forced to defend the foreign country from the ridiculous diatribe which is expounded by the local media, the words may change, but the tune is often the same. In most cases precisely what is missing is any form of analysis... it's just too easy to use the same old stereotypes
What surprises me the most is the stock that people put in the so called "special relationship"... it is very much overrated and only referred to when purposes serve.

Scarier still, maybe we should discuss the influence of the UK on Belgium, I see that "Benny Hill" was on "la une" this evening (18:55-19:20, prime time!). I mean come on guys, that's from the 1960s and it wasn't even that good then, surely you can do better than that! :lol:
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Postby Raf » Mon May 23, 2005 8:43 pm

gouezeri wrote:Scarier still, maybe we should discuss the influence of the UK on Belgium, I see that "Benny Hill" was on "la une" this evening (18:55-19:20, prime time!). I mean come on guys, that's from the 1960s and it wasn't even that good then, surely you can do better than that! :lol:


Hey, Dom. I was not trying to troll or offend anyone. By the way, I think we're all reasonable adults here, I don't think we shouldn't censor ourselves. When Phil and Steve (and Eward) and I started this thing, I do believe we ventured beyond coffee now and then, and what better to discuss over a cup of coffee than politics, right? And don't worry, if it looks like you'll get the better of me in a discussion, I'll mod your posts 8)

So please enlighten me with counter arguments. I was just observing that the UK trends more to the US than Belgium (or France). My view might be warped because I'm a food fundamentalist, and I notice a fondness for fast food that's stronger in the UK than anywhere else in Europe. Also, my subscription to 'Private Eye' might distort my ideas about the UK... :shock:

Re the Benny Hill thing: we're into surrealism, here.
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Postby Gouezeri » Mon May 23, 2005 9:07 pm

S'ok, Raf, I personally wasn't offended at all, as I say, I'm used to being treated as a "foreigner" and having to provide the "other" perspective, and this really is my point, there's so much "mis-information" out there; though it's no better or worse in the UK than elsewhere. I read a newspaper article recently that was supposedly quoting Raffarin when in fact the words that were attributed to him had been used in a cartoon in Le Parisien!
Maybe it would be better if this was taken to a different thread though?
D
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Postby Belgik » Tue May 24, 2005 11:58 am

Hey Gouezeri, merci and Raf dank je n Phil...all very refreshing and my colleagues at the office are temoin (witness) to the fact that I wholeheartedly chuckled more than once reading the above dialog(ue).
Argh...you know, the relative "lack of time" to deeply develop argumentation in forum-writing, coupled to (with?) polarisation "to US or not to US" always leads to broad sweeping generalisations, often based upon one's narrow-minded prejudices. I am guilty of that, too. I am Flemish, work in (16th century Spanish) Flemish Antwerp (in English lingo), wifey is French-speaking Belgian, I learned "American" (as the French would say - I disagree in full) in Texas... I often (have to) defend the good ole USA against the francophiles, and do the reverse on American forums... I basically love an interesting story :-)))
As to England-America, well there is a definite historical relationship there, which is OK with me. As to MacDo, I HATE it with a passion that some set fire to them...c'mon now, really! Star$ sucks, that is my personal experience. But it did teach me that my espresso at home is FANTASTIC, so ...thanks Star$
And, YES, Bruxelles la capitale de l'Europe is a provincial capital, with lots of nice aspects, but broadmindedness is not our forte. London is exquisitely cosmopolitan and, without being fooled, the mix of styles (read human origins) is at the root of interesting cultural forms. And I will (no problem at all) accept that eating horses would not be part of that...and the Argentine ribeye steak was very, very good.
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Postby SteveP » Tue May 24, 2005 9:19 pm

Your Starbucks used to be a Madisons before that chain was taken over by Big Green. It's a rather nice location but doesn't really fit into SB's typical layout, being round and almost an island. There is a similar store in Brighton that stands empty as a much larger SBs is across the street. No doubt they won't allow a competitor to use it. Round burger shop, anyone?

StarBucks over-roasts (IMHO) to get more "flavour" out of less bean. This is (correct me) a west-coast US-thing started by Peet('s) - who was from Holland! Here's a question - anyone else order a "short cap" at Starbucks? In some stores, you get a nice short cap (baby size) and it's less expensive (GBP1.59 or so) than the normal "tall small". Other stores just give you a tall. Can it be that SB's has inconsistencies?

Starbucks is the Macdonalds of coffee like Guinness is the Macdonalds of beer. It may not be very good (compared to the best) but it's reliable when you are in a strange place.

Now, about the beef. Remember the UK had the most problem with BSE (mad cow disease). Rare meat, meat from the bone, etc. are not really recommended. And your Argentinean beef? Well, they certainly eat LOTS of meat in Argentina. How good it is is open to debate. But (again correct me) I believe since Argentina has endemic foot-and-mouth, the only way their beef can enter the UK is pre-cooked or frozen. That is - no fresh beef from Argentina. Cooking the meat more makes it more palatable when it's not really fresh. For a great steak, try Texas or South Africa.
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Postby wang » Tue May 24, 2005 9:56 pm

I don't quite think Guinness is the mcdonalds of beers. It's a lot more finicky than lagers, and you'd see an Irishman wince if a barman took less than a minute to pour it or in a single step. Maybe you're thinking of budweiser or heineken?
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Postby Steve » Tue May 24, 2005 9:59 pm

Dont make me join in guys, you dont want that on your hands :)
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