Has anyone else noticed?

[Pressurestat]

Hi there,

Has anyone else noticed the practice of pulling a single shot with a double shot portafilter and discarding the other shot, often poured into one of those clear shot glasses. It is happening to me more and more often in Nero's and *$. Now if you want to be strict to the recipe then it should be that you can't scale the pouring of a double shot by adding twice the grind in a bigger portafilter however many outlets are selling doubles as standard now. I am quite old fashioned and believe if you want a double then you should pour two singles. If I buy a single then I want a single made to the correct recipe not half a double with the other half poured away. However many of the outlets don't even seem to have a single spout single portafilter!

What does everybody else think?

Cheers

Ben

[Raf]

It's obviously a mindblowingly stupid policy, but something you'd expect from a large chain that doesn't necessarily care about coffee quality.

[Joey]

...believe if you want a double then you should pour two singles....

Hi pressurestat

...maybe I understand something wrong here, but do you really consider a coffeehouse should make one single shot, let it rest the whole minute you need to grind, level, tamp and pour the second shot (if you make every shot fresh, what we all do here, no pregrinding!) and so need at least 2 minutes to serve the customer a double espresso?
Even in a rush hour? Seriously?
What do you have against the double baskets for a double shot?
And I am talking about business here, not playing at home.... for fun...
I think big companies like Faema, San Marco, etc.. have been working long enough in the coffee machine business to have found the right proportion of straight to angled walls....

Ok, if I am very strict, yes, I would have to grind the coffee for a single basket a bit different then the coffee for a double basket. I admit there is a tiny difference.... but again, in a coffee house we don't have the time to make 2 single shots after each other in a rush hour and to be honest, only the true - every day coffee testing coffee geeks like us - taste the tiny difference in the single vs. the half of the double shot.
The customers don't. Specially because they don't have both next to each other to compare.

At the beginning I used to make only doubles, and if I needed a single shot I used the other one for making an ice cube with it, for my next iced coffee drink.

Today I am used to the single basket as well and know how to grind/tamp differently to get pretty much the same perfect shot.
Funny, I always thought single baskets are a booh.....

joey

[matts]

It's obviously a mindblowingly stupid policy, but something you'd expect from a large chain that doesn't necessarily care about coffee quality.

I don't know about that. Like Joey says in a high volume setup where there's no time to adjust the grind slightly or be careful about the dosage needed for a good single, you're much more likely to get a higher quality beverage (if you only want a single) from one side of a double spout. It's also not uncommon in Italy as far as I know.

I think the cost of wastage of the odd dumped single shot will be tiny compared to the other overheads.

Matt

[RobC]

I could do with a little more information to understand this, Ben, have you noticed whether two shots of coffee are pulled from the doser for the double handle? If so at least you are getting a decent espresso and they are wasting the other, if not then it is really time to despair.

I can understand the theory of using double portafilts everytime rather then swapping to singles and back to doubles - especially for a volume outlet. The problem of cold portafilt's not being re-heated before use is always an issue. However, if they are going to just bin a shot, you would be better having a doppio and getting a full on shot! Of course, the chance of getting a doppio is pretty slim unless you actually state "can I have two pulls of coffee out of the grinder into the double handle, but just put one cup under the spouts and press the single shot button". Que blank stare and head scratching, or "won't that be really strong"

If I really wanted to get on (and no doubt fall off) the soap box, I could say what the AFH market certainly in the UK is a universal style sheet to work of for espresso based beverages - instead of the random system that exists currently where you can just about buy a completely different beverage called "Cappuccino" in every outlet you try. From what little I know of Joey from the forum, I believe she fits in well with my owner/operator ideal - for good AFH coffee find small (not that I know how big the Mocca Club is, it could be massive!) independant outlets - if you buy coffee from someone who has shelled out a few grand for a machine they have a vested interest in doing a good job providing they do the work. Chains who use staff are never going to be that upto scratch, in the same way someone opening an outlet but employing casual staff will not always get the commitment to the drink produced. I have no idea if it will ever happen, but until Barista enters the category of Occupation - and paid appropriately the drinking coffee out of home Russian Roulette is just another fact of life.

[HughF]

One thought - does a bottomless portafilter reduce the justification for 2-group machines? Would one blank shot heat the basket sufficiently if a big lump of brass does not need to be heated up as well? (Written by the owner of a 1-group machine. Maybe I'm just jealous - or maybe I can see a 2-group machine means having no kitchen space left for most people!)

Cheers,

Hugh

[matts]

I could do with a little more information to understand this, Ben, have you noticed whether two shots of coffee are pulled from the doser for the double handle? If so at least you are getting a decent espresso and they are wasting the other, if not then it is really time to despair

I assumed this was what he meant and have seen it done (and haven't despaired...)

Hugh you are becoming quite the grinder collector. Time for a full on comparative double blind test

I don't think there is any justification for 2 groups in the kitchen unless it's the kitchen of a boarding house and you serve 50 lattes of a morning, but hey, actually the justification is 'I can have one and I want one' IMVHO and nothing to do with any quality improvements in the beverage produced so if it floats your boat carry on

I'm not sure what your concern is about how hot the pf is? I think most of it's heating comes by conduction from being left in the group. The advantage of bottomless as far as I've been able to follow is a) the training/technique value of seeing the flow out of the bottom of the basket and b) more crema because it's not flowing over the extra metal of the basket bottom/ spouts. (and maybe c) it's pretty to watch)

Let us know what you think of the Mini E compared to your other doserless ones.

Cheers
Matt

[zix]

I suppose I am only being daft (common fault of mine) but
1. Isn't it a lot easier to get good shots from the double filter than the single filter? It surely has been so for me - perhaps because the single filter is much more sensitive to too much or too little coffee. I am only doing this at home, but almost never use the single filter, unless I have too little coffee to use the double.
2. Isn't it common practice to pull a double in a double filter? Pulling two consecutive singles in a single filter to get a double (if that is what pressurestat meant...? again, perhaps I am only being daft) seems like a bad idea to me.

[Joey]

Hi zix!
There is a tiny diference to taste, but only a true coffeegeek tastes it. But which one is better? I think that's a matter of taste. Like I like the Hawaiian better when it's half of a double. I like the Nicaraguan better if it's from a single..... Who can say what should be the "right tasate"?
I could play for hours and try to find out if I can make the Hawaiian better in the single by grinding differently.... boy that would use a lot of time...
what I found out:
the narrower (smaller and deeper) the basket is, the easier to get the same quality of a single shot out of a single filter as the half of a double. (found that out by testing and comparing)
It's also more "foolproof" when it comes to tamping.
Meaning - chances that you don't get wholes through your puck of water finding it's own way when not tamping properly are minimised with a 55mm PF then with a 58-60mm where the puck is much thinner in hight. (talking about a single basket here)
*
*
* or am I just spoiled by good employees who tamp so right that I haven't seen a bad puck for 4 months now? >grin<

Hugh, I still need two groups in the shop, but I have two single group machines next two each other for following reasons:

1) I have two groups to work on simultaniously, don't need a third as humans couldn't handle it anyway...
2) one machine is hotter then the other one, I use them depending on the coffee (Indian monsooned hotter, Indian Plantation cooler...)
3) one keeps the single PF hot, the other one the double
4) one is reserve when the other one is not working (worst case cenario)

back to the single/double thread: I even have a second single & double PF lying on top of the machine for beeing preheated in case of a rush hour.... although every shot of a single origin is watched with a timer, if we use our houseblends -which grinders are adjusted perfectly- I know I can let the shot flow and turn around to grind the next one in the meantime. The machine stops at 30ml and the houseblends always have the right timing.
Now, as I cant adjust the grinder for the single PF when using the houseblend - I tamp a tiny bit harder and get the *same* result as with the double PF.
So as geeky as we try to be - it would be too much to buy additional grinders for single and double basket use.

And again, as we use deeper PFs, the quality of these two sizes is 99% the same and only we geeks would feel the difference.....

[HughF]

Snipped :
I'm not sure what your concern is about how hot the pf is? I think most of it's heating comes by conduction from being left in the group.

Cheers
Matt

I just wondered if it was less crucial to have the PF up to temp - if really only the basket needs to be hot - with a bottomless PF.
Consequently, pulling a blank shot through a single basket in a second (bottomless) PF might be enough to heat just the basket.
This would remove the need to use a second group to keep a second PF warm if using two PFs (e.g. a single and a double basket) but not needing to pull 2 shots simultaneously.

Cheers,

Hugh

[Raf]

I'm beginning to think I misunderestimated the original question, but I can't think how... I'm expecting a spark to come out of my ears any moment from the system overload I'm getting from this thread...

[Joey]

oh come on, join the fun!
so, whats your opinion about using two single shots when you want to drink a double?
and besides - how quickly can you heat the filter basket if the PF is crouchless?
he, he

[zix]

Joey, are you saying you only use machines with 55mm portafilters?
Hmmm. I have heard that people like the Spaziale for this reason. Do any of the old pro lever machines (like Gaggia GX, visacrem and others) have smaller diameter portafilters?
---
/Zix
slowly, crotchlessly & painfully moving to the kitchen to warm up his single pf.

[matts]

This would remove the need to use a second group to keep a second PF warm if using two PFs (e.g. a single and a double basket) but not needing to pull 2 shots simultaneously.

Riiight, I get it now. You want to (for instance) pull a double shot and then a single straight afterwards, and you are the owner of two portafilters, so you can have a single basket in one, and a double basket in the other rather than pop the baskets in and out like us poor plebs with only (gasp!) one portafilter in the house....

In that case the bottomless pf might well be just the thing lying on top of the machine keeping warm. Certainly cheaper than an extra group

Cheers
Matt

[Joey]

Joey, are you saying you only use machines with 55mm portafilters?
Hmmm. I have heard that people like the Spaziale for this reason. Do any of the old pro lever machines (like Gaggia GX, visacrem and others) have smaller diameter portafilters?
---
/Zix
slowly, crotchlessly & painfully moving to the kitchen to warm up his single pf.

Yep, most of my machines are 55mm
Old Lever with 55? The La San Marco does.
I have two of them in my stockroom but no time to repair them.
I could sell one. But it is missing the original drip tray.
joey