What do you consider the word 'FRESH' to mean?

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Postby Jasonscheltus » Fri Jul 24, 2009 4:59 am

dsc wrote:Hi guys,

can't say you've been treated properly and I fully understand the reason behind this rant. One thing I cannot understand is why not "name and shame"? they clearly don't really care about what they advertise and on top of that don't really care about customers. Why the hell should you care if the name of the company appears here? They did something wrong, so in my opinion it's ok to say who did it, simply to protect people from wasting their money. It's not bashing for no apparent reason, it's clearly saying 'This and this company screwed up and here's why...'. I'm sure other people can judge for themselves whether there's anything to back such a negative statement or not.

It's one of the things that strikes me the most in the UK, not 'naming and shaming' even though something is clearly wrong. Political correctness gone wrong?

Regards,
dsc.


I guess my short answers is that most people remember bad experiences more than good ones. And they also talk about bad experiences more.

And as a business, it is impossible (very close to) to ensure that everyone has a good customer experience every time... And 'naming and shaming' lasts on a business name forever, and I think in some cases (obviously not this one) people do not give the business a chance to rectify their mistake.

I mean, do what you want. I'm just saying that being thoughtful about it and not letting "the old red rag to the bull syndrome" kick in doesn't hurt.


Now, I'm off to look at myself in the mirror for a while! Ha!
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Postby Jaanus » Fri Jul 24, 2009 6:39 am

kingseven wrote:However a lot of the industry, speciality included, finds incredibly fresh coffee unpleasant, compared to slightly aged coffee (6 to 12 days) and would be hesitant to get to a point where anything older than a week is considered stale (not that this is what you are suggesting either).


I think You agree, James, that there is a remarkable difference in aging coffee properly sealed and aging it in steel vats completely exposed to oxygen. Not saying that beans don`t need time to come down from the "high" roast gave em, but it has to be a controlled process.
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Postby ubo » Fri Jul 24, 2009 9:10 pm

The use of the term 'fresh' in the UK is defined (albeit loosely) by the Food Standards Agency at http://www.food.gov.uk/multimedia/pdfs/ ... idance.pdf (see page 11). If you want to complain about food product labelling then Environmental Health is your best bet in terms of their having the expertise in the relevant legislation as opposed to Trading Standards (Weights & Measures is an activity carried out by Trading Standards relating to the 1985 act).

I’m with James in that 12-days would be fresh by most definitions and fits the criteria in point 26 of the above link (the precedent being the 12-month norm throughout most of the industry): the argument thereafter remains on the storage conditions at the vendor for the 12-days prior to sale but there is no legal basis for this other than if the coffee was kept in an appropriate environment from a food safety standpoint and it remained fit for consumption. It could be said that having a ‘roasted on’ date would provide validity to the ‘fresh’ statement however again there is no legal requirement for this; in fact the only requirement is to have a lot code (can be a date) prefixed with ‘L’ (it’s that prescriptive) which can be linked back to a given production batch which gives one-up / one-down traceability from the seller. The lot code itself need not be transparent to the consumer. The ‘best before’ date should however be.
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Postby daveyb » Fri Jul 24, 2009 9:24 pm

Thanks for the comprehensive reply Ubo. Boy what a minefield! I did use the wrong terminology in as much as I was interviewed by Trading Standards who passed or shared the case with Environmental Health and not Weights & Measures.
I do not believe anything will come of my claim regarding freshness, but I hope that this may lead to flaws in their stock control system. I say hope, because I firmly believe that this bunch do not have the knowledge to decide if a bean is fresh enough to send our or not. I also do not believe that they care about this either, or that is certainly the attitude I pick up on in the correspondence I have had with them.
If I was a coffee retailer, I would want to retail the best coffee in the world. I am not a coffee retailer but I am an amteur cake maker for my sins and I have the same attitude to that. Anything I can do which may help me produce a better cake, I am willing to consider. Willing being the operative word!
Thanks to everyone for their input.
It is worrying though, to think that the might of the European legislative think tank brain power cannot come up with a simple solution to a problem like this. It may well keep a whole department of bureacrats going for years!
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Postby daveyb » Fri Jul 24, 2009 9:29 pm

Having re-read tat link ubo sent, to the Food Standards, under Point 31, it does say terms such as freshly cooker, roasted etc should have no other connotation than the immediacy of the action being described.
Therefore can Freshly Roasted apply to a bean 12 days old?
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Postby espressomattic » Fri Jul 24, 2009 9:38 pm

One issue that stands out for me here, is that of transparancy. I have had cause on occassion to call roasters and enquire about the quality of beans/freshness. This has ranged from Robert Harris, who are the largest roasters in NZ (Cerbes Greggs) throught to small roasters such as Hummingbird in ChCh and Zigana on the North Shore. On each occassion I have had detailed and productive correspondence.

Take for example Robert Harris; I bought some off the shelf beans to see what they were like. My wife and I detected a stale tasting note in them. I called customer service who took a detailed report. 2 weeks later I received a letter which covered my query and a detailed response to said query (And a voucher for more coffee). They were kind enough to inform me of the roasting dates from the batch number and what dates to look for if I wanted really fresh coffee. In one conversation, the customer service rep agreed that coffee over 1-2 months old will be stale tasting, however the majority of the public won't know or care for that.

The incident with Zigana was great. Ray, the head roaster again asked detailed questions and said he would get back to me. He sent me various samples and it actually helped identify a roasting issue he was having. He was open about batch and roasting dates and had nothing to hide.

it all boils down to communication and customer service. Sadly, there are people who are far to precious to take onboard constructive critisism and enter into a meaningful dialouge. (I had this experience with Union Roasters a few years ago...didn't make a fuss afterwards and didn't bother with the beans again).
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Postby ubo » Fri Jul 24, 2009 11:03 pm

Davey - I think it all boils down to precedent; the fact that to many consumers a say 10-day after roasting statement accompanied by a roasting date tied to ‘freshly roasted’ would have no bearing where as there is common acceptance that ‘freshly baked this morning’ relating to bread would be a good thing. That being said the use of roasting dates and other messaging that challenges the status quo (legal or consumer perception) has a huge role to play in moving coffee forward.
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Postby Jasonscheltus » Fri Jul 24, 2009 11:16 pm

ubo wrote:Davey - I think it all boils down to precedent; the fact that to many consumers a say 10-day after roasting statement accompanied by a roasting date tied to ‘freshly roasted’ would have no bearing where as there is common acceptance that ‘freshly baked this morning’ relating to bread would be a good thing. That being said the use of roasting dates and other messaging that challenges the status quo (legal or consumer perception) has a huge role to play in moving coffee forward.


And I think it's possible to change too.

There's a beer here in Australia called Coopers, which because of residual yeast, does need "Best Before"like most things do because it doesn't spoil. So they were allowed to print "Best After" on their bottles instead.

I guess the trick would be getting all the roasters in the UK to agree on new terms.
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Postby CakeBoy » Sun Jul 26, 2009 10:35 am

espressomattic wrote:One issue that stands out for me here, is that of transparancy. I have had cause on occassion to call roasters and enquire about the quality of beans/freshness. This has ranged from Robert Harris, who are the largest roasters in NZ (Cerbes Greggs) throught to small roasters such as Hummingbird in ChCh and Zigana on the North Shore. On each occassion I have had detailed and productive correspondence.

Take for example Robert Harris; I bought some off the shelf beans to see what they were like. My wife and I detected a stale tasting note in them. I called customer service who took a detailed report. 2 weeks later I received a letter which covered my query and a detailed response to said query (And a voucher for more coffee). They were kind enough to inform me of the roasting dates from the batch number and what dates to look for if I wanted really fresh coffee. In one conversation, the customer service rep agreed that coffee over 1-2 months old will be stale tasting, however the majority of the public won't know or care for that.

The incident with Zigana was great. Ray, the head roaster again asked detailed questions and said he would get back to me. He sent me various samples and it actually helped identify a roasting issue he was having. He was open about batch and roasting dates and had nothing to hide.

it all boils down to communication and customer service. Sadly, there are people who are far to precious to take onboard constructive critisism and enter into a meaningful dialouge. (I had this experience with Union Roasters a few years ago...didn't make a fuss afterwards and didn't bother with the beans again).


What a complete opposite to the experience a fellow TMC'er had in a shop here in Oxfordshire a couple of years ago, and which may already have been recounted fully or in part elsewhere on these boards.

Upon asking when the beans in the large glass containers were roasted, she was informed with an air of superiority that they were 'all fresh'. Our friend then enquired again about the roast date and was told that the vendor did not know. The question of how one might then know that they were definately fresh was met with a little hostility and the explanation that the containers were regularly topped up and an order had only arrived a week or two before. No beans were bought that day.

I would not have bothered with the inquisition myself, nor would I buy from anyone storing beans in such containers, though it was very informative to know that some 'specialist' outlets have little or no handle on the age of their beans. Much like Davey's experience really and all rather disappointing.
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Postby JulieJayne » Sun Jul 26, 2009 9:19 pm

This issue of what is Fresh, is one that I believe the SCAE should be taking up. Unfortunately they are too focussed on other matters.

Perhaps we should start a new coffee association to address such issues.
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Postby motoman » Fri Jul 31, 2009 9:01 am

We have a saturday market in Bridgnorth, amongst the vendors is a French mobile stall selling fantastic cheeses and meat products. There is also a huge glass jar filled with roasted coffee beans, the lid is a typical sweet jar type with no air seal. It is there week after week. People buy then because they are labeled French Coffee and evoke visions of sunny boulevards in days long past. They probably enjoy the coffee because they have never drunk the real thing or even know how it should taste.

We are a lucky bunch, sometime in our life we discovered the real thing and moved on. Most folks never do, retailers can get away with passing on the dregs to ignorant drinkers and occasionally have to try to bullshit someone with higher expectations. £30.00 is a reasonable price to pay for one of lifes lessons just as long as you learn from it.
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Postby daveyb » Fri Jul 31, 2009 10:03 am

A fair point indeed and I quite agree. But, the question I ask you is, how can you base your decision to buy a product, if the information displayed in the advert is questionable, and the product sent out when it is too late is both stale, and infringing the laws of the land with regards to labelling.
By then you have lost your £30, have not learnt anything and feel ripped off!
Thats why I took up the mantle. I do not excpect a refund or an apology, that much has been made clear by them. But I do expect them to learn a lesson of life in as much as if they are retailing then they have to comply with the law! Which after all, is there for our benefit and protection!
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Postby CakeBoy » Fri Jul 31, 2009 10:12 am

motoman wrote:We are a lucky bunch, sometime in our life we discovered the real thing and moved on. Most folks never do ....


A very good point and an extremely poignant one too :D
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Postby bruceb » Fri Jul 31, 2009 11:49 am

daveyb wrote:A fair point indeed and I quite agree. But, the question I ask you is, how can you base your decision to buy a product, if the information displayed in the advert is questionable, and the product sent out when it is too late is both stale, and infringing the laws of the land with regards to labelling.
By then you have lost your £30, have not learnt anything and feel ripped off!
Thats why I took up the mantle. I do not excpect a refund or an apology, that much has been made clear by them. But I do expect them to learn a lesson of life in as much as if they are retailing then they have to comply with the law! Which after all, is there for our benefit and protection!


I understand you ire, but I question the likelihood of successfully teaching anyone a lesson under these circumstances. In my 67 years of occasionally getting ripped off, companies or individuals who respond as these people did will only conclude that there are a few individual troublemakers who don't appreciate their efforts. They won't improve their product and I doubt that it is possible to legally attack them. Good luck, nonetheless.
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Postby RobC » Tue Aug 11, 2009 2:01 am

An interesting thread which I admit I skimmed, but anywhere did we get a "Name and Shame" of the offending party? It's all very well saying over twenty posts "I bought some coffee from somone and I didn't think it was very fresh which I found dissapointing", but what we really need to know is why did you buy from them, what did they say that lead you to expect more then you received and why on God's good earth did you not go to Steve at Has Bean or Jim at Square Mile Coffee?

In answer to the title of this thread I consider the word "FFFFFrrrresh" to mean Steve Leyton or Jim Hoffman, which means if you didn't even consider contacting either of them before buying your coffee, how can I sympathise with your dissapointment? Throw me a bone and caution to the wind, who did it, when and how - go on - was it professor plum in the conservatory with a candelstick? The names have been changed to protect the innocent, but if they aint innocent you don't need to protect them so let me know.
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