Beans that are good for your heart

[CakeBoy]

Overall, this is a very special industry that has survived the test of time... the simple fact is that it is not in anyones interest to screw anyone else. If you do you wither lose your supply to your roasting business or if the producer screws the roaster they lose their future business.
It is a highly codependant industry

A very good point

[Jonny782]

Hi guys

I'm still not convinced about the film being incorrect on prices paid to farmers. they were stated clearly several times and not disputed by any of the various people in the film, including the guy representing the cooperative. These prices were not transient (altho hopefully they have improved somewhat). they had fallen in comparison with 20 years before. the argument in the film was that the Coffee Growers (traders?) Agreement had ended years before and that the free market was the problem. It would seem that the free market was disastrous for the farmers. Now you could argue why did they not simply switch to another crop. I don't know the answer to that, but suspect that there is not a clear alternative. it comes down to whether you believe that the unsullied free world market is the only answer way. We know that the powerful nations do all sorts of deals to protect themselves from free trade - e.g. French farmers, and no doubt there are numerous other examples. Regardless of whether they could or could not switch to another crop, the fact was from the film (tho' I realise this is disputed) is that they were earning approximately zero for their kilos, and this is plain wrong. I have no idea how widespread this problem is, and from what has been posted it is not representative and may be a minority. But I think we're in danger of glossing it over.

I would be delighted if I felt I could rely on all specialty coffee to be non-exploitative. However, it would be strange if coffee was untypical in world commoditites and "free trade" worked for uneducated third world farmers with no electricity or running water let along internet access. OK, FairTrade coffee may be exploited by supermarkets to screw a bit of extra money from a higher end coffee, and middle men may be screwing the producers, but in the absence of time to carry out research on my own behalf, I feel a bit safer with it. I am uneasy about "this is a wonderful industry" line. I'm sure that it often is, but not totally convinced yet. And need a better argument than "believe me Jonny we know more than you". That may sound untrusting, but it's better for me to be honest about this.

I also think the slating of Starbucks in the film is a diversionary issue which is not really so relevant, as you might expect such a big multinational to get what it can. Having said that, I don't know whether it has an ethical policy with respect to what it pays and how much the growers get. If it doesn't, it ought to.


Jonny




(by the way has anyone got a second hand roaster? ... it would be for the beans and not for my person).

[Gouezeri]

I'm still not convinced about the film being incorrect on prices paid to farmers.

So you're basing your information on the research done by a couple of documentary filmmakers? Rather than the first hand knowledge of the professionals on this forum, who have personal and professional relationships with a number of growers in a variety of countries. It should be remembered that Ethiopia is not necessarily representative of the situation in other coffee growing regions.

they were stated clearly several times and not disputed by any of the various people in the film, including the guy representing the cooperative.

why would the directors want to challenge their own argument?

I have no idea how widespread this problem is, and from what has been posted it is not representative and may be a minority. But I think we're in danger of glossing it over.

I don't think anybody here is ignoring or glossing over the plight of the farmers. Far from it, and if anything, quite the contrary. I would say the vast majority of members here actively support the farmers by buying a high quality product for a premium price. Just take a look at some of the recent CoE auctions to see the kind of sums involved which are paid directly to the farmer. As many other have said, FT seems to be more about subsistence than any real progress.

I would be delighted if I felt I could rely on all specialty coffee to be non-exploitative.

That is a vast generalisation. I only buy coffee from a handful of suppliers, but those that I do buy from are not just transparent in their pricing, they are openly championing the rights of farmers and the quality of their product!

OK, FairTrade coffee may be exploited by supermarkets to screw a bit of extra money from a higher end coffee,

That's just it though. It's not a higher end product, and the extra money which is being screwed out of the end customer barely makes it to the producer.

in the absence of time to carry out research on my own behalf, I feel a bit safer with it.

Isn't that taking the easy way out though? You watched a film which lasts 78 mins when surely the sensible option would be to ask here, which suppliers could you buy from and trust to know that you are buying a high quality product which fully rewards the farmer for their efforts.
Call me sceptical, but that's the kind of question I'd rather spend the time asking any day, rather than risk believing what the mass media tells me. You've taken the time to raise this "discussion" and respond in this thread. You have had responses from people at origin, roasters and consumers, who have all said more or less the same thing. It's really not that much of a leap to ask where you can buy a higher standard of coffee with not just a fair price, but a rewarding price to the farmer!

Most of the time it seems to me as though people want to buy FT just to make themselves feel better. In which case, there is little point in discussing their choices.

[mattmills]

Before this dicussion goes further, please advise and define the price paid to the producer:

Date: Month and year is all that would be needed
State of the coffee: Fruit, Wet parchment, dry parchment, green
Region of Ethiopia
Proccess Method: Washed or Natural
Quantity
Quality: Defect count, if in fruit percentage of green and black cherries, if in parchment what was the yield
Cup: At the very least was it clean

I know that these questions may seem a little over the top, but considering the that the price paid to the farmer is the base line of the argument it is important to know the details behind it.

I am not arguing against the principals of fairtrade, quite frankly it is far easier to make money from these coffees. The discussion is regarding comments related to the rest of the industry exploiting farmers. This is a sweeping statement and it is as easy to make as saying trust me, without a full justification it has no standing.
Now if we are able to know how the price level to the producer has been defined maybe we are able to discuss the matter further, if not it is a pretty pointless argument.

It is pretty easy to go into the field and pull out any sort of figure you like.

[Gouezeri]

Matt, you're a spoil sport! As if you could actually make a decent film based on firm facts, where's the fun in that! Next you'll be telling us all *$ isn't really a big bad wolf

[CakeBoy]

I guess we could film people from the forum if it adds extra credence to their opinion

[Gouezeri]

I guess we could film people from the forum if it adds extra credence to their opinion

Would you believe/listen to Steve if you could see him?

[Steve]

I guess we could film people from the forum if it adds extra credence to their opinion

Would you believe/listen to Steve if you could see him?

no I wouldn't

[lukas]

Look! he's actually a nice bloke

[CakeBoy]

I guess we could film people from the forum if it adds extra credence to their opinion

Would you believe/listen to Steve if you could see him?

no I wouldn't

I just keep my eyes shut

Look! he's actually a nice bloke

Oh cool! Gosh, a year has passed so quickly.

This is well worth a look too (didn't know Steve had put it on YouTube):

http://youtube.com/watch?v=rDjWmiJS4Rk&feature=related

[motoman]

My home town, Bridgnorth, is proudly proclaiming itself as the only Free Trade town in Shropshire. I have tried the beans sold in charity shops and what passes for coffee in our local cafes, no way will I ever purchase from either again until the product equals the hype. If it were possible I would try green beans from FT sources but I have never seen them on offer.

I am genuinely sorry for the plight of the very poor farmers but until the promoters of free trade do something to help these farmers produce a drinkable product instead of bemoaning their fate I see no way of resolving this problem. By supporting them we simply perpetuate the supply of low quality products just to ensure they get enough to live on. Train them and we may yet give them a better life and a safer future.

[ubo]

My $0.02 worth, the pricing of Ethiopian burr/kg given in the film was an accurate reflection of the returns to the farmers in the Sidamo region for cherry at collection points / the mill at the time when that section of the film was shot. I was there a few months later and on subsequent occasions and have visited the Killenso Mokonisa co-op featured in the film, which happens to be at high altitude in Borena district in the southern part of Sidamo (and also produces great tasting coffee).

Couple of points to make on previous posts in this thread in terms of the structure of the coffee market in Ethiopia. The physical market for wet processed coffee (as featured in the film) exists at three main levels in that country:

- Cherry sales from farmers direct to collection points or at the wet mill itself (middlemen / private wet mill / co-op wet mill) for conversion to parchment
- Sale of parchment via the auction system to exporters (around 300 active in the Ethiopian auction system, exporters sometimes have vested interest in wet mills) or in the case of a limited number of second level co-ops sales made direct to importers / roasters, i.e. thus by-passing the auction system
- Auction coffee from private exporters or second level co-op direct sales coffee, is then exported once a government export licence (which includes a physical and blind cupping) has been granted

The point for me that the film was making (however clumsy) with regards to the burr/kg price was the disconnect in the value chain between smallholders and the other participants in that they are essentially just selling fruit and have no real access to command additional value unless they establish or join a co-op which in turn has access to a viable export channel. Significantly, the small size of the smallholdings, coupled with the relatively large average family size, mean that this is compounded further. Cherry prices in Sidamo have risen by ~150% since that section of the film was made (non-elastic to New York and even the export price for Sidamo greens due to demand an local speculation), however the vast majority of its producers are still selling into privateer middleman and the structure of the market has not really changed, nor is it likely to change in the short term.

[Jonny782]

That's very helpful, tho i did not altogether follow all of it (notably cherry sales, parchment and wet-mills). from memory i thought the price also applied to the cooperatively sold coffee. Do you happen to know about other areas/ countries Ubo?

[ubo]

The group discussion interview piece in the film in the town of Hagre Mariyam with Killeno Mokonisa members refers to pricing prior to the co-op being able to export via Oromia second level co-op (they were new members to the second level co-op at that time) and the pricing referred to in the piece was for unprocessed cherry (post-sort). Just noticed I spelt birr incorrectly above (as opposed to burr - must have grinders on the mind today).

Ref knowledge of other areas, yes certain other origins. I think the key thing is that where you have supply chains structured in the way that you do in much of Ethiopa and significant parts of Africa in general, i.e. individual small-holders selling cherry into middlemen with little competition, then there is little potential for producers to add or gain value. Given the circumstances of land ownership / access (plots typically < 1H) then organisation into an association or co-op is almost a pre-requisite in these circumstances although access for start-up CAPEX for milling / transport is often prohibitive as is the availability of technical assistance and business resources. Access to market, either to value add relationships or the certified route is another leap again.

From a producer standpoint this might be viewed as a structural limitation to the physical market for them although some might say that multi-nationals may be view it as a market advantage and this is the crux of the film in many ways.

[Jonny782]

Oke. thanks Ubo