Beans that are good for your heart

[Jonny782]

I watched that film "Black Gold" recently on telly. I was shocked to discover how little the farmers get - a tenth of a U.S. cent per kilo. The price has plummeted since the ending of the coffee producers agreement many years ago. it is now set in New York. the Ethiopian farmers operated a cooperative, but still the price was at such a level that many could not afford to send their children to school and had very poor living conditions.

The film constrasts this with the amount people pay in cafes for coffee and showed the stunned faces of villagers when they found out.

The middle men and the big coffee companies make the money plus coffee chains of course. They also showed an international trade fair where Europe and the U.S. ruthlessly exploited their power over the developing nations - keeping them out of the key negotations, having armies of negotiators and resources vs. one or two representatives from poorer countries, and yet perversely and self-righteously claimiing the morale high ground.

Fairtrade is about 20% more to pay for the consumer, but it results in a fairer price for producers and a huge difference to their lives. It seems a small extra price for us to pay.

[HughF]

Are you absolutely sure it is one-tenth of a cent per kilo total price paid to the farmer? I'll admit that I haven't seen the film but that seems very low indeed.

By the way, if you haven't read the review of this film on the home page, that's worth a look.

Cheers,

Hugh

[AlexV]

It all depends on what coffee you are talking about. Most speciality coffee shouldn't be lumped in with coffee the film is talking about. Unfortunately there is just too much low quality commodity grade coffee being grown around the world, and the large instant coffee companies use this to their advantage.

[Steve]

Its far to big an issue to cover in one paragraph and in one post but trust me Jonny that's not the same across the board, and far from prices plummeting there are sectors that are booming with prices beyond anything seen to be paid in the past.

Black gold paints a picture that its wants to and not the most balanced of pictures at that.

[kingseven]

I think it is interesting that there has been such a huge shift in the C market since this film was made, and the credit crunch may actually continue to increase the C price as coffee people are speculating that many brokers are looking more and more at the soft commodities like coffee and coca and seeing a potential for profit there.

The scale, detail and complex interactions of the coffee industry completely and utterly break my head.

[Jonny782]

Speculators and brokers seeing an opportunity to make money. what a world we live in. when business is booming experience shows that it's other people cashing in - middle men and large companies. producers have little power even when they form cooperatives. Steve - what's the evidence that producers are getting more cash? I for one am sceptical.

[Gouezeri]

Jonny, when Steve is talking about certain sectors, he is generally referring to the speciality market, which is where most of us here source our beans. Given that Steve buys and sells for the speciality market and has direct links with growers, then he knows precisely what they are getting paid. If Steve was to state openly the links that he has with certain growers and associations, then he would be close to falling foul of our no promotions rule, so you've got to be a little understanding if he responds in a discrete manner. I'm sure if you PM him, he'll bore you to death though

[Steve]

Speculators and brokers seeing an opportunity to make money. what a world we live in. when business is booming experience shows that it's other people cashing in - middle men and large companies. producers have little power even when they form cooperatives. Steve - what's the evidence that producers are getting more cash? I for one am sceptical.

Ok I'm going to put this down to the internet thing thats making me feel this is quite rude of you Johnny I think you make your points for all the right reasons but the picture is much bigger. You have to understand there are many different markets withing the coffee industry, that all pay a very different price for coffee.

If your talking about by multi nationals they are very focused on price and screwing people down (not in all cases but in some) then yes there has been some exploitation of growers, but fair trade is no guarantee of them getting a good price. In fact its just a guarantee they get enough to live on. Thats a start I hear you say and indeed it is but there is work being done by MANY roasters in the UK and around the world. The thing that riles me about fair trade its being used a stick to beat the consumer up with by the very people that created this market of exploitation.

As Dom says if you would like some evidence that the people we buy from get paid well, I'll be very happy to provide you with there email address and you can contact them directly or Photos of us actually visiting them to make sure they are living in good condition s and are being rewarded well for there work. Just let me know via PM.

Or you can go and take a look at the Cup of excellence website for a transparent view of exactly what the farmer got paid for some of our and other roasters for extremely fine coffees from around the world. smashing into the ground the very low fair trade prices that maintain the status quo for developing countries keeping them in poverty so they can continue to be exploited.

If you would like to share the same information about the fair trade "Beans that are good for your heart" I'd be happy to sit hear and eat my words.

[Gouezeri]

Steve,
Maybe I'm naive, but I'm not sure it was a personal dig.

I sometimes feel the same, but when I read or hear about fairtrade coffee, I too want to see the facts and the effects! I've heard all of the wonderful rhetoric supporting fairtrade, but I want the ground roots feedback, showing the difference it is making to people's lives and independence. By independence I mean helping them to become self-sufficient by improving how and what they produce.

I seem to remember asking this before and not getting any responses back. Has anyone actually had a decent cup of FT coffee? Until I do, I'd rather buy through a reputable roaster (who provides a degree of traceability and a reputation for supporting growers) and if I still want to help, then donate the money directly to someone like coffee kids.

For yet another take on FT coffee (I don't remember seeing this quoted here): The Poverty of Fairtrade Coffee

[Steve]

I agree and hope it isn't a persona dig Dom, I'm just quite touchy about all this kind of stuff

[Gouezeri]

Yeah, I know what you mean Steve, and I know how personally you take your responsibilities to both the growers and your customers! Sometimes the net just isn't conducive for good communication. Thankfully everybody takes the effort on TMC to treat everyone else with respect, something all of the team members very much appreciate!

Hey, btw, how's the old Rwandan Wearside team fairing?

[CakeBoy]

It reads to me as though, quite understandably, Jonny was quite shocked by what he saw. I think we all feel the same about people living in poor conditions. Unfortunately, there are conflicting views about the best way to alleviate the situation.

I'm sure the people involved in each of the initiatives feels they are helping, and to an extent may well be, either practically or simply by drawing attention to the problems growers face.

Contention sometimes arises when decent people read or hear about the plight of growers from an organisation that aims to make things better and that body fails to convey that they are not the only ones trying to help. People can, quite reasonably, assume there is no other way to make it right. I think that sometimes happens when people hear how fair trade organisations operate.

Farmers certainly receive the highest prices from direct relationships with roasters. I know what Steve pays (as he says, it's transparent if you look on the CoE sites), and it is many times the rate that fair trade groups are prepared to give the farmers.

I totally agree it is a scandal that many farmers live in poverty whilst some companies pofiteer from their labours, though it is important also to recognise that some roasters are doing enormous amounts of good work to ensure that a fair price is paid to beans, where possible directly to the farmer, and in doing so provides far greater assistance to those growers than some organisations set up to do so who make a lot more noise about their work.

As Dom mentioned, the net is not always the best place to discuss emotive subjects and gauge the other party's demeanour, though for me it's good that TMC is here and such subjects can be considered by people who all quite clearly care

[mattmills]

I am sorry but all of this is really going to far....

I offer anyone to come to Colombia and find anywhere where the middle man or multi nationals are screwing the farmer.

The coffee market is both large and very complicated, it is beyond naive to base a judgement and make sweeping statements that are damaging to the industry after a watching a once sided and marketing related film.

The speciality market has done wonders in rewarding farmers for the additional work needed to produce higher quality coffees, however this still does not mean that standard coffees are damaging the producer.

Just for your information today´s price in the field for coffee is around 145 cts/lb equivilent green, working out to $3.19 per kg.

This price obviously fluctuates throughout the year depending on the level of NY, plus the balance of supply and demand.

These matters are all very sensitve and create a faulse inpresion of a wonderful industry. Before judgements are made i would suggest that people are willing to find out more about the market that can then allow them to make a balance view.

(sorry for the strong wording of the response, as many who know me will understand this is a topic close to heart)

[Steve]

Here here Matt

[Gouezeri]

Hey Matt,
Good to have you back with us! Hope the relocation has gone well. You might want to change your location in your profile
Please do tell us how things are going when you have a spare moment!
D