Beans that are good for your heart

Tell us about the latest beans you've discovered and blends you've tried

Moderators: GreenBean, Gouezeri, bruceb, CakeBoy

RE: Re: RE: Beans that are good for your heart

Postby mattmills » Fri Jul 11, 2008 3:31 pm

Hey D,
Thank you for the heads up. Just changed the profile info.

The move has gone very well thanks, and have settled into Bogota. The city is quite wonderful, really developed and remarkably safe!

The coffee side has been a bit of a struggle due to a tough winter here reducing the flow of the Mitaca, but on the positive side i have managed to have some success on the Speciality coffee side. There really is an incredible potential here, and im pretty chuffed to have been able to demonstrate that to a few roasters around the world... now looking forward to the main crop to really kick this on.
mattmills
 
Posts: 249
Joined: Tue May 11, 2004 8:16 am
Location: Bogota (Colombia)

RE: Re: RE: Beans that are good for your heart

Postby CakeBoy » Fri Jul 11, 2008 6:42 pm

Hey, good to see you around Matt. Glad it's going well in sunny Colombia :D
www.CakeBoy.co.uk
International muffin blagger

Iberital L'Anna 1 Gp Hand-Fill | Wega Orion 2 Gp | Bezzera 1 Gp | Rancilio Audrey PID | Spidem Trevi
Iberital MC2 Timed | Macap M4 DS & MXA DS | Mazzer SJ | Starbucks Barista Grinder (Dualit E60/Solis 166)
Pinhalense 2x500g Gas Batch/Sample Roaster | Gene Cafe | IMEX CR-100
Aerobie | eSantos | Zassenhaus | Bodum P/Over | Chemex | Hario Woodneck | Timer Filter
User avatar
CakeBoy
 
Posts: 10006
Joined: Tue Oct 18, 2005 10:43 pm
Location: Oxfordshire, England

RE: Re: RE: Beans that are good for your heart

Postby mattmills » Fri Jul 11, 2008 8:33 pm

Sunny Bogota ;-)
Makes Lords cricket groud look like the Caribbean!!!

Glad to see i havent been too badly heckled for being a grumpy old man.
mattmills
 
Posts: 249
Joined: Tue May 11, 2004 8:16 am
Location: Bogota (Colombia)

Re: RE: Re: RE: Beans that are good for your heart

Postby Gouezeri » Fri Jul 11, 2008 10:40 pm

mattmills wrote:Glad to see i havent been too badly heckled for being a grumpy old man.

As if... we have Phil for that! :wink:

The thing is, I'm certain none of us here would wish for coffee growers to be badly treated or exploited. However, the media and marketing forces have gotten so used to portraying things a certain way it is hard to know what the reality is. This is why I prefer to buy my coffee from reputable individuals and not huge companies. In most cases, if I wanted to find out the age or first name of the grower, I could. I know that I am dealing with individuals who really care about their product, and I am happy to pay a premium for that. With FT, you're paying the premium but for a poor product, there's no two ways about that.

We live in a world that survives and thrives on hype rather than substance.

Glad to hear that the move has gone well Matt. Do let us know how the season pans out, as it is info like this that rest of us appreciate as we value not just the product, but where it comes from and those involved in the process.
User avatar
Gouezeri
 
Posts: 4185
Joined: Fri Oct 22, 2004 9:56 am

Re: RE: Re: RE: Beans that are good for your heart

Postby Beanie » Fri Jul 11, 2008 10:42 pm

mattmills wrote: Glad to see I havent been too badly heckled for being a grumpy old man.
Geez Matt... if YOU're a grumpy old man, what does that make Phil? :P Sorry Phil... I couldn't resist... even though every time I saw you @ the HB's open roastery day, you were nothing but big smiles :D
This week, I'm mainly recovering :DAll I've got is my Aerobie AeroPress | 70's Aurora/Brugnetti HX Spring Lever | Mazzer Mini E & SJ (on loan) | Hottop | Nestor Martin (Toto) Gas Roaster | Eva Solo | Moka Pots
User avatar
Beanie
 
Posts: 2769
Joined: Mon Nov 08, 2004 11:50 am
Location: GMT-5

RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Beans that are good for your heart

Postby Gouezeri » Fri Jul 11, 2008 10:50 pm

You've seen him smile? Have you got photographic proof?
Thought that northerners were genetically incapable of smiling... in case they froze that way :wink:
This week I are feeling sleepy!
User avatar
Gouezeri
 
Posts: 4185
Joined: Fri Oct 22, 2004 9:56 am

RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Beans that are good for your heart

Postby mattmills » Fri Jul 11, 2008 11:33 pm

The thing is, I'm certain none of us here would wish for coffee growers to be badly treated or exploited. However, the media and marketing forces have gotten so used to portraying things a certain way it is hard to know what the reality is. This is why I prefer to buy my coffee from reputable individuals and not huge companies. In most cases, if I wanted to find out the age or first name of the grower, I could. I know that I am dealing with individuals who really care about their product, and I am happy to pay a premium for that. With FT, you're paying the premium but for a poor product, there's no two ways about that.

We live in a world that survives and thrives on hype rather than substance.



In essence you are spot on. Quite simply the best way to buy coffee is to find the highest quality of cup and pay a premium for it, and enjoy the taste that your money pays for.

During the past decade we have seen a huge amount of publicity by "do gooding groups", many of which have had a positive effect on the world. However this has now become a bit of a fashion, and it really is a blight on this industry. It is very easy to manipulate the information we are presented with.
This topic was able to rise in popularity during the coffee crisis years where prices were at historic lows, which opened a door. We are now at levels almost triple and this is for commercial coffees. Hence there is a need for this form of scare mongering to maintain the moral high ground.

I could not agree with you more(regarding quality), and this is something i am working on in Colombia... produce better coffee, get a better price idea. But this is because im a coffee snob and i enjoy good coffee, plus there is great, untapped potential here.

This does not mean that standard coffees are any less "fair" is the wrong word but you know what i mean. The price is determined by quality and what the market is able to pay.
mattmills
 
Posts: 249
Joined: Tue May 11, 2004 8:16 am
Location: Bogota (Colombia)

Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Beans that are good for your heart

Postby Gouezeri » Sat Jul 12, 2008 5:34 am

mattmills wrote:This does not mean that standard coffees are any less "fair" is the wrong word but you know what i mean.


And this is what annoys me, we have been tricked into thinking only FT is "fair", to the extent where a lot of commercial outlets have to sell FT products with the right label for customers who fail to accept that there are better alternatives. I can't think of any other charitable organisation which has shown such a competitive and elitist attitude.
User avatar
Gouezeri
 
Posts: 4185
Joined: Fri Oct 22, 2004 9:56 am

RE: Re: RE: Beans that are good for your heart

Postby Jonny782 » Mon Jul 14, 2008 5:04 pm

This clearly is a complicated subject, and I am pleased to hear about schemes to pay a fair price outside of FairTrade. It is important to air this type of subject on such an open forum, and for people to state where they get their information from, as I did when I started this off, unlike Steve who seems to want a fight, and by the way is patronising and quick to be rude himself. Establishing the evidence and discussing it is exactly what we should be doing in public debate.

I'm no expert having only watched that film, which no doubt did not present the whole picture and led one to feel that it was widespread in the coffee growing world. The logic is that if buyers can get coffee in Ethiopia for $.001 a kilo, why do they go elsewhere and pay $3.19. Is the price in the film wrong? Has it changed? Answers please without jumping down my throat.

How widespread do people think the abuse of fairtrade is? I feel quite uneasy about attacks on "do-gooders". Well done to do-gooders! We could do with more of them, as long of course as they are well-informed and not cack-handed. I am drinking FT at the moment and actually it seems to taste alright. Is it a general view that it's all rubbish?
Jonny782
 
Posts: 97
Joined: Fri Feb 24, 2006 9:09 am
Location: London

RE: Re: RE: Beans that are good for your heart

Postby mattmills » Mon Jul 14, 2008 7:36 pm

Good Afternoon Jonny,
Whilst it may appear that some of us have jumped down your throat , you must understand that this is a very sensitive issue, especially for those os us who work in the industry. Coffee as you will be aware is something that is close to our hearts, not only the coffee industry as it stands now but the history of the industry too.
Coffee has a very proud tradition, and one of the reasons that i fell in love with this industry is it´s nature and it´s gentleman aspect. Many of these issues have cut quite deep for us and this has been going on for a long time. Apologies if the responses came across as rude, you just walked into a mine field

The commodity markets and especially coffee are far too large for anyone party or side to control (this has been proved numerous times, see attempted squeese of LIFFE), therefore the issue has never been about someone screwing another, particuarly producers.
The reason for the coffee crisis, some 10 years ago, was not due to roasters or consuming countries bullying producers but simply due to a huge over supply which was brought about by historically high prices for years before hand. These prices encouraged producers around the world to plant more coffee. It usually takes around 3 years for new plant to be productive. This increased production flooded the market pushing prices down.

For the past 5 years we have seen much higher prices, but this is primarly due to farmers ripping up their plantation either for different more profitable crop or selling land for realestate. This is/was also combined wiht the increased consumption on the origin countries such as Brazil. Therefore it is clear to see that origin countries have as much power as the consuming. If a crop, in this case coffee, is no longer profitable ther producer turns to another crop or another use for the land.
This is obviously over simplified but you get my point.

Now i have no idea where the film gets the price per kilo or how it is justified. However, from my experience with East African coffees i find this figure to be very odd and would like to know how this figure was reached.

As for the do gooders (this is my sense of humour) the negative impact this can have is quite serious, especially when the group do not understand the matter at hand. If you look at the Ethiopian issue with Starbucks. The country´s reputation has been hit quite badly from their behaviour with no positive outcome for the farmers. In essence a lot of time and money was wasted with only one outcome.

I hope that this comment help or explains the sensitive nature of the discussion.
mattmills
 
Posts: 249
Joined: Tue May 11, 2004 8:16 am
Location: Bogota (Colombia)

Re: RE: Re: RE: Beans that are good for your heart

Postby Gouezeri » Mon Jul 14, 2008 8:22 pm

Jonny782 wrote:This clearly is a complicated subject

Very much so, and there are those here who know far more than I, simply because they work in the trade. However, I trust them, because I have known them for a long time, and know them personally, and they would not wish for anybody to be taken advantage of, from grower to customer. I do appreciate that not everybody knows the people involved in this thread as well as I might, however, records on TMC speak for "themselves".

and I am pleased to hear about schemes to pay a fair price outside of FairTrade.

Have you actually looked at the prices involved in speciality coffee, which the vast majority of us buy? We are not talking about "fair" prices here, but well beyond that and a huge amount compared to FT! I personally don't feel the need to buy FT coffee, because I've yet to find something "drinkable" and I understand that I am doing far more to help growers than if I was to buy FT coffee!

It is important to air this type of subject on such an open forum, and for people to state where they get their information from, as I did when I started this off.

Fine. That is what TMC is for. However, I think you'll find there are quite a few a people who will take issue with the film you are citing. People who have both seen the film, have spoken to the directors, and have a personal and business connection to coffee growers. Thus, people who know far more than I, and whose opinions I respect far more than your average film director. This is not a new subject to either TMC or its members.

unlike Steve who seems to want a fight, and by the way is patronising and quick to be rude himself.

That's not really fair. Have you actually read or seen the care that Steve takes towards the growers that supply him with coffee? Given the amount of time he has been in the trade, I think you'll find it hard to find a roaster that has spent more time at origin than he has, especially in the UK. Take a look at his site, or his blog. Look at what he has to say about the time he has spent with producers. Look at the pictures of him with the people who supply him with coffee. Then tell me whether you think he is taking advantage of these people. If you think he is quick to respond, it is because he feels responsible for their welfare and their product. Why would he bother to spend so much time with them if he did not?

Some people might consider me to biased in this matter as Steve is a friend. I am lucky to consider him a friend. But, I do so not least because I respect his attitude to both those who supply him and those whom he supplies! His reputation in the business speaks for itself and does not need my simple opinion to defend it.

Establishing the evidence and discussing it is exactly what we should be doing in public debate.

True, but this is a debate that has been discussed here on numerous occasions over the past few years, so you'll have to forgive us if we don't want to repeat ourselves ad nauseam. You'll have to do the research yourself to find all that has been discussed in the past. To repeat it here, now, and each time, would be preaching to the choir, particularly when the information is here already on the forum, for those who are prepared to spend the time doing a search and reading the responses.

I'm no expert having only watched that film, which no doubt did not present the whole picture and led one to feel that it was widespread in the coffee growing world. The logic is that if buyers can get coffee in Ethiopia for $.001 a kilo, why do they go elsewhere and pay $3.19. Is the price in the film wrong? Has it changed? Answers please without jumping down my throat.

This is the crux of the issue. There are members here, who do not have to rely on films or the media for their information because they either work directly with growers, or have a personal relationship with them. Would you rather believe the directors of a film who will probably move on to the next hot topic, or people who have been working honestly in the trade for a number of years and who are sincerely trying to produce/provide a fair product for a fair price? TMC exists as a forum for those who love coffee. Whilst we are more than happy to support charitable causes, that is not our aim. This does not mean that the two are exclusive. There are more than enough suppliers who care about how coffee is produced, the welfare of those who produce it and the tastes of those who consume it. To think otherwise is grossly disrespectful to all involved!

How widespread do people think the abuse of fairtrade is?

Precisely what are you referring to when you talk about "abuse" of FairTrade?

I feel quite uneasy about attacks on "do-gooders". Well done to do-gooders! We could do with more of them, as long of course as they are well-informed and not cack-handed.

This in itself is a huge topic and not entirely appropriate to TMC.
Suffice to say that seriously I doubt anybody here buys their coffee without a concern for both the quality of the product AND that of the producer! We are not adverse to "do-gooders" but nor are they our concern. Much has been undertaken under the auspices of "doing good" when the result has been the reverse. This has little to do with coffee.


I am drinking FT at the moment and actually it seems to taste alright. Is it a general view that it's all rubbish?

Personally, I am still waiting for somebody whose opinion I respect to state otherwise, and by this I am referring to professional cuppers. I would be more than happy to be proved wrong (and as a result to learn by my mistakes). Until then, I feel absolutely no qualms whatsoever in paying considerably more than FT rates for coffee which both I (and those whose opinions I respect) claim to be worthy of a speciality premium!
User avatar
Gouezeri
 
Posts: 4185
Joined: Fri Oct 22, 2004 9:56 am

Re: RE: Re: RE: Beans that are good for your heart

Postby Steve » Mon Jul 14, 2008 10:02 pm

Jonny782 wrote: It is important to air this type of subject on such an open forum, and for people to state where they get their information from, as I did when I started this off, unlike Steve who seems to want a fight, and by the way is patronising and quick to be rude himself.


Jonny Sorry if I have patronised and been rude to you, not my intention at all, I certainly don't want a fight. However I do feel very passionately about the subject and sometimes do go off on one. Because I feel as passionately about producers getting a fair deal (and consumers getting an excellent coffee!), I get annoyed by systems which try to tell us there is only one way. There are lots of good things out there being done above and beyond the fair trade system.

A few weeks ago I was in El Salvador and Nicaragua visiting and experiencing the difference an excellent price (far above a "fair price") can make to peoples lives. I'm also off to Rwanda next month for my first visit to Africa to see what we can start to achieve there. Fair trade attempts to guarantee a price whereby people can just survive. Speciality aims to let people be rewarded for the full extent of their efforts so they can live well both now and have the means and knowledge to support themselves better in the future. That should be our aim not survival or subsistence living.

Perhaps I should step away from the thread for a while.

Again sorry if I've offended jonny, just me getting over excited about something that matters to me.
User avatar
Steve
Founder Member
 
Posts: 3442
Joined: Fri Aug 22, 2003 5:58 pm
Location: Stafford UK

RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Beans that are good for your heart

Postby Jonny782 » Tue Jul 15, 2008 7:47 pm

Hi Steve

I've obviously hit a raw nerve and you know far more about this than me. I am interested in the notion of "specialty", presumably a relationship between roaster and buyer. I would feel embarrassed asking my supplier whether he knows how much people get paid who grow the beans. Should he know? Should he know about the growers of each and every supply of coffee? That would surely be a Herculean task.

I gather from the paper yesterday that commodities across the board have doubled in price in the last two or three years, and this must be a big problem for vendors keeping costs to consumers down. Perhaps I should ask the question and not give the answer - how much is likely filtering down to growers. Speculators and commodities dealers do not have much do-gooding reputations.

The film may not have been representative across the board, but I'm convinced it was accurate about Ethiopia, and it is admirable that people make such films. Whether representative across the board or not. One gets a sense that documentary makers are often of integrity apart from a few dodgy ones. the cooperative representative in the film was clearly a man of great integrity also. Arguably people in a buying/ selling commercial relationship are more not less likely to have a bias, although I would not be suggesting in any way that of you or any other users of this site!

Out of interest, why subsistence level payment in Ethiopia and not Columbia? Should one be buying FairTrade from Ethiopia but not necessarily elsewhere?

Jonny
Jonny782
 
Posts: 97
Joined: Fri Feb 24, 2006 9:09 am
Location: London

Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Beans that are good for your heart

Postby Steve » Tue Jul 15, 2008 8:11 pm

Jonny782 wrote:Hi Steve

I've obviously hit a raw nerve and you know far more about this than me. I am interested in the notion of "specialty", presumably a relationship between roaster and buyer. I would feel embarrassed asking my supplier whether he knows how much people get paid who grow the beans. Should he know? Should he know about the growers of each and every supply of coffee? That would surely be a Herculean task.


Hi Jonny its tough to know how much every one gets paid, but a good roaster will have a good idea of the majority of his stock where it came from and how much was paid. Its quite transparent in the prices that you pay for the coffees from importers brokers.

specialty is when a coffee is of a certain standard and is scored to be of better quality. Making the idea a little simplistic but easier to understand It also tends to mean that it is sold to people and not markets which also helps.
Jonny782 wrote:I gather from the paper yesterday that commodities across the board have doubled in price in the last two or three years, and this must be a big problem for vendors keeping costs to consumers down. Perhaps I should ask the question and not give the answer - how much is likely filtering down to growers. Speculators and commodities dealers do not have much do-gooding reputations.




The Farmers are making much more than they did 12 months ago thats without a doubt (but still not enough). This is across the board in commodity coffee and in specialty coffee. The differences are that commodity (commercial coffee) is sold by these not so reputable traders, where specialty is about building relationships and making coffee more of a product than a commodity.

Jonny782 wrote:The film may not have been representative across the board, but I'm convinced it was accurate about Ethiopia, and it is admirable that people make such films. Whether representative across the board or not. One gets a sense that documentary makers are often of integrity apart from a few dodgy ones. the cooperative representative in the film was clearly a man of great integrity also. Arguably people in a buying/ selling commercial relationship are more not less likely to have a bias, although I would not be suggesting in any way that of you or any other users of this site!


The film had a message it wanted to get out. it was a message that Starbucks were bad (I've yet to meet a farmer that doesn't love starbucks and there buyers they pay great prices for their coffee). It was too much of a challenge to go after the big roasters in Sara Lee Nestle Proctor and gamble and kraft as they are faceless in the eyes of the consumer. starbucks hits us in the face in every town and city.

The film touched the surface and lead us down a story they wanted to tell at the detriment of other facets of the industry.
Jonny782 wrote:Out of interest, why subsistence level payment in Ethiopia and not Columbia? Should one be buying FairTrade from Ethiopia but not necessarily elsewhere?

Jonny


What you should be asking is not is this Fair trade but was it fairly traded. there is a difference even with the closeness of statements. Each country has its own problems and its own issues. does one farmer deserve or help more than another, thats a question for our consciouses. But for me I ask do you know who this is helping? Do you know if they will be helped? Can you tell me who reaped that reward, and were there any middle men involved. Fair trade is one of the biggest middlemen in the industry. I saw an advert a while back now in one of the Sunday glossy magazines with what I like to call poverty porn. Showing someone to be poor to make us feel guilty. Did that advert help the farmer ? I'm not sure but I know my small company cant afford to spend that kind of money and return on investment in printed ad's that is something thats yet to be proved to me. So who did it help? The newspaper? The brand of Fair Trade? Did it help the farmer?

Calculating that, in general (and being generous), the fair trade farmer gets 12p extra for a Fairtrade pack of coffee, compared to a standard, commercial brand. However, the price on the pack in Sainsbury's is around 75p more than their own brand offerings Resulting in a small reward for the farmer from the supermarkets, but a large return for the supermarkets hitting the guilt strings of its customers. Is this fair?

and it still comes backto fair trade keeps the producer in poverty, it means they can survive, and thats just not enough.
User avatar
Steve
Founder Member
 
Posts: 3442
Joined: Fri Aug 22, 2003 5:58 pm
Location: Stafford UK

RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Beans that are good for your hea

Postby mattmills » Tue Jul 15, 2008 11:20 pm

Wow this thread is getting some action!

Jonny, with regards to the price in Ethiopia compared to here in Colombia this is a very difficult point and i wouldnt pay too much notice to the figure in the film. If this is real interest to you, Ethiopian coffees are sold through an Auction System where the coffee is sold in Parchment. To know the actual price then it is fairly straight forward to find out what it is. Also worth noting that forigen companies are not allowed to operate in Ethiopia therefore all of the business is conducted by local businesses.

Anyone who will listen ;-)
The Specialty business has done a lot for the industry in the past few years, especially for paying premiums for better work and cups. However it is pretty harsh to say that Commercial coffee is traded by unreputable traders.
90% of the world specialty coffee is traded by people whos main business is Commercial coffee. Specialty coffee only equates for a small percantage of the world market which currently stands at around 130million bags. What is to happen to all the coffee that is not Specialty? In the end the price paid to the producer is dependant on the end consumer. If we consider that roughly 70% of the UK market is Instant... that explains quite a lot in itself.

Plus it is clear to see that outside the Specialty market the price is a main driver for consumers, take the German market for example which has suffered from a price war for the past 5 years and hurt a large number of roasters. A number of whom used to buy high quality coffees but are now no longer able to do so.

The aspects of coffee trading also need to be taken into consideration... there are a large number of time where the so called middle men take the risk that no one else is willing to do not only on the coffee itself but the financial management of it. For example there are a large number of time when a trader will sell coffee for less than he purchased it at. This is managed by futures trading, and who benifits from this, the farmer because he has received a higher price. Just an example but i am sure you can see what i am getting at.

Overall, this is a very special industry that has survived the test of time... the simple fact is that it is not in anyones interest to screw anyone else. If you do you wither lose your supply to your roasting business or if the producer screws the roaster they lose their future business.
It is a highly codependant industry
mattmills
 
Posts: 249
Joined: Tue May 11, 2004 8:16 am
Location: Bogota (Colombia)

PreviousNext

Return to Beans, Blending and Cupping

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 26 guests

cron