Whats Steve thinking this week?

[Steve]

In a series to try and answer some of the wonderful things in coffee (and maybe life) the question must be asked what is Steve thinking this
week.

Ok here goes. I did a cupping on Wednesday of some of the roasts coming through. Un remarkable I hear you say, we do this most days. I had blind cups on the table of a Kenyan, Brazil, and a harar. When cupping these coffee's together it made me think the Brazil was very clean and sweet, the Kenyan acidic and fruity, and the harar earthy and mushroomy. So I started to think is Harar a defect? Should I find that earth and mushroom in either the Brazil or Kenyan, I'd be rejecting it and panicking I have defect coffee. Then I started to think that Harar is one of the Grandaddy's of coffee so this mustn't be a defect and all the others must be. So fruity sweet, acidic, chocolate and all those things we love in coffee must be defects.

Unless a coffee is earthy, mushroom, dirty then its defect. Or are we saying that some defects are ok? I had a discussion with an American well respected cupper about ferment. I believed one cup was ferment, where he was saying it was a fruit basket of tastes. So who decides that it is a defected cup? Please discuss

[monkey66]

mmmmmmmmmmm....coffee...aaaaahhhhh

or in other words, if it tasts good,it is

[jameso]

Excellent question:

I guess that ferment and phenolic are both objective things that could be analysed in a laboratory. (Looking for more than usual alcohol or phenol). Both will have an impact on the taste profile, but it is unwanted chemicals caused by defects in processing that we are trying to describe.

Other defects are equally objective - mold being a classic.

Once we've ruled out defects like that, I think I agree with monkey66. "Taste I like", or "taste I don't like" are all good conclusions, but "taste I don't like" can't then be confused with "defect".

The other thing that comes to mind is characteristics of origin. A mushroomy Brazil may not taste like most Brazils that we meet - but, again, if it's not defective, what's to stop us enjoying it just because it tastes like a Harar but comes from Brazil?

Just my (still relative amateur and newbie) 2p worth

James

[CakeBoy]

One man's coffee is another man's poison. Many foodstuffs contain elements of "bad". Cheeses are moldy, yogurt is the by-product of bacterial activity etc, so the presence of any element in coffee is subject to the perception of individual taste. You have commented many times Steve about different nations preferring specific flavours in coffee. In just the same way, individuals are bound to have subjective views that suit their own palates and coffee drinking habits. Good topic Carlos

[blackice]

IMHO Harrar is not supposed to be earthy and mushroomy. Somebody who buys the Harrar expects other things like fruitiness or winey acidity... So there's sth wrong with the Harrar.

When a coffee is fermented I usually expect it before I roast it. The green beans have sth strange

If earthiness is too much or mushrooms are too much then sth is wrong, especially if it's uncommon for the coffee under examination. If ie I tasted a monsooned coffee I would expect those things much more.

[Steve]

IMHO Harrar is not supposed to be earthy and mushroomy. Somebody who buys the Harrar expects other things like fruitiness or winey acidity... So there's sth wrong with the Harrar.

I'm sorry but Harrar is Earthy, and I can assure you there is nothing wrong with it at all. Yes winey yes fruity but wrong I think not. It sounds like you haven't tried good Harrar to me.

When a coffee is fermented I usually expect it before I roast it. The green beans have sth strange Smile

Then you have a career beckoning at origin. I can tell you that you that it is incredibly difficult to spot ferment in greens, and the only place I can is in the cup. Ferment can happen in as little as one bean in one cup. If your smelling it in greens then your buying from the wrong people, as to have enough to smell must be awful coffee and virtually undrinkable.

[simonp]

In my limited experience, Harar is quite earthy, but from most that I have had it's more characteristic taste is the furityness, and the blueberry smell and flavour (not always there though). I think that without this it becomes much more ordinary.

I think that defect or characteristic in taste can be very subjective though. Some love acidity in coffee, and some dislike it. Also bew methocds change your perception. The acidity of a Kenyan is a plus for conventionally brewed coffee, but would be a "defect" in an espresso shot.

[Steve]

Spot on simon, fruit and of course Blueberry is the main part of the cup but the earthtyness is a component that give it a unique cup profile.

And adding brew methods makes it even harder to work out, what is the un defected cup?

Steve

[CakeBoy]

Damn it ..... I have to order some now. Marcy has been going on about it forever, then Breako, now this thread. Blueberry madness .... but got to love it

[simonp]

Personally I like an eartky coffe, as long as it has something else on top of that, lie a good Harar or Lintong. I suppose at the end of the day the popularity of Indonesian coffees (which are generally quite earthy I believe) suggests that it is not considered a defect by most.

I suppose that there is an element of what is expected in deciding a defect. You expect a Kenyan to be acidic, so it it tastes earthy it is considered a defect. If you bought a chicken, but it tased of beef, then you would consider it defective even if you like beef.
It is a tricky point.

[Beanie]

me love Harrar

I'd even say my love affair with coffee really started after my first cup of Harrar which I roasted with greens from Steve

[Beanie]

Personally I like an eartky coffe, as long as it has something else on top of that, lie a good Harar or Lintong. I suppose at the end of the day the popularity of Indonesian coffees (which are generally quite earthy I believe) suggests that it is not considered a defect by most.

I suppose that there is an element of what is expected in deciding a defect. You expect a Kenyan to be acidic, so it it tastes earthy it is considered a defect. If you bought a chicken, but it tased of beef, then you would consider it defective even if you like beef.
It is a tricky point.

Which kinda sorta brings us back to Steve's original post, doesn't it?

[CakeBoy]

Personally I like an eartky coffe, as long as it has something else on top of that, lie a good Harar or Lintong. I suppose at the end of the day the popularity of Indonesian coffees (which are generally quite earthy I believe) suggests that it is not considered a defect by most.

I suppose that there is an element of what is expected in deciding a defect. You expect a Kenyan to be acidic, so it it tastes earthy it is considered a defect. If you bought a chicken, but it tased of beef, then you would consider it defective even if you like beef.
It is a tricky point.

Well put. Similarly, it's a bit like getting tea from someone when you expected coffee or vice versa. You may like both but not getting whatever was anticipated can still produce a cry of yuk.

[kingseven]

Unless a coffee is earthy, mushroom, dirty then its defect.

This is the sticking point for me. This makes the assumption that Harrar is your baseline in all coffee, when it isn't. Its chemical make up (in the cup) is still massively influenced by factors beyond its botany and soil type.

I don't think defects need to be classified against one coffee, or one taste profile.

I would classify defects (in the cup) as being unusual chemical compounds (so not the normal) that are likely to provoke a reaction of displeasure in the taster. (By likely I mean the majority of standard palates would say no to it, but this does allow for unusual taste preferences like Rio defect in Greece).

Furthermore your argument assumes that different=defect, which I can't really go along with.

[blackice]

It's been a long time since I've tasted Harrar... Harrar has sth peculiar in the taste. You may call it earthiness. That's why some people here in Greece use it in blends for Greek Coffee. The Harrar has sth unique like the Yemen Moka. Another characteristic of a Harrar is the fantastic aroma which not always passes to the final cup

Too much of "earthiness" for a Harrar is strange for me. I don't exactly call it earthiness. For Sumatra Lintong/Mandeling on of the main characteristics is earthiness. Defect is sth very strange/unexpected/unpleasant.

Kingseven: Most importers here in Greece buy cheap Brazil coffees from Rio. They also import cheap "Santos". Sometimes this coffee is a bit "fermented". The beans have a slightly different appearance. Sometimes they smell different. Their roasting behavior changes... The final resulting roasted coffee has a unique taste. Blended with a Harrar gives a very unique blend for Greek Coffee, which some people like.

I'm not saying that every greek coffee blend is made this way! Maybe a bit of ferment is nice for some people... I know people who like their food a bit burnt!!!!