Aggregate scores in cupping notes

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Postby ubo » Sun Feb 19, 2006 4:17 pm

Steve
Ref CofE – I agree that it is a great programme in terms of providing access and education in producing countries. Also agree that it can help develop producers’ understanding of market requirements with regards to cup profile. However, I still think that the judging system is slightly flawed (use of quantitative data without the appropriate analysis and controls I would see as slightly flawed?), but to return to my previous post it is possibly all that is practicable in this environment.

With regards to your comments in your later post, true the diff between CofE pricing and FT minimum pricing is normally quite significant but I think this is largely driven by the buying mechanism (and dare I say to an extent by ego’s), roasters know that other roasters look at the auction listings and of course if you are participating then you to see your name up in lights. Not that anyone here has suggested this specifically but I don’t think that CofE auctions are a sustainable or efficient market mechanism for coffee sales and procurement. As a mechanism for highlighting quality to roasters, it’s fine and long may it continue.

Ref Fairtrade, I had an interesting conversation with a farmer a couple of weeks ago who is a member of a Fairtrade co-op (also organic) and he saw CofE as a nice hobby, promotional exercise and as a competition but not as a sustainable approach to selling his crop (although he has been top-20 in CofE in the past). In terms of what Fairtrade brought to his community, he waxed lyrical on the subject without interruption. Interestingly what he did say about CofE was that he was unhappy that cuppers with less than one year’s experience were being used by the national institute for the regional heat prior to the final coffees going to the international panel. Looking at the reports from the regional event and having cupped the coffee I would tend to support his grumblings. That being said he is entering again this year.

Fairtrade is not without its faults but I would disagree that Fairtrade producers are getting no more when NYC goes above 126, as producers have increasingly begun to insist the contract is normally at sellers call which allows the co-op to make the most of any peak and (FLO contract also requires 15c/lb premium on organic which the general organic coffee market is struggling to obtain these days). Look at FLO minimum price diffs on ubiquitous FT Mexicans versus FT Yirgacheffe or FT Sumatrans, just because it’s not explicit in the FLO contract it doesn’t mean that supply / demand / quality don’t impact on FT pricing as well. For example there are co-op’s in Ethiopia this year that have sold out of conventional contracted Sidamo’s on the basis that they can sell all of the remainder of their crop via FT which means a significant increase in income for the farmers over the conventional pricing over dozens of containers, dwarfing the $$$ impact of a single country CofE like Bolivia in just one co-op, and with social direction applied to a significant proportion of the funds decided at local level. This in turn will benefit > 1,000 farmers versus the 19 in the Bolivian competition. There are softer benefits to CofE I know rather than just $$$ but you would be hard pushed to see at least some of the logic in this. To return to your point that Fairtrade producers are getting no more when NYC goes above 126, even if this were the case they were getting 126 when the market was in the late 40’s…

I agree that there are roasters (and coffee bar chains) out there that do take a tokenistic approach to FT and it probably isn’t the definitive answer to the woe’s of those most dependent on the NYC but I think for a larger proportion of farmers it can make a greater impact than cupping competition / auctions ever will.

James
Ref PROP – there are a couple of studies (although some that contradict as well) with regards to PROP sensitivity and its affect on preference for foods (incl coffee) in terms of the acceptability of bitter characteristics. Given the genetic spread of this in different global populations will this mean that SBUX will need to alter their roast style in different global markets :wink: . Shopping was good (although that makes me sounds like my wife :wink: ).
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Postby ubo » Sun Feb 19, 2006 4:18 pm

Forgot to say, still njoyin this thread as well :lol:
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Postby Steve » Sun Feb 19, 2006 6:35 pm

With regards to your comments in your later post, true the diff between CofE pricing and FT minimum pricing is normally quite significant but I think this is largely driven by the buying mechanism (and dare I say to an extent by ego’s), roasters know that other roasters look at the auction listings and of course if you are participating then you to see your name up in lights. Not that anyone here has suggested this specifically but I don’t think that CofE auctions are a sustainable or efficient market mechanism for coffee sales and procurement. As a mechanism for highlighting quality to roasters, it’s fine and long may it continue.


I'm kind of with you here, there are a lot of ego's involved in it. But those ego's pushed a coffee up to $49.90, who cares :) Part of the fun is competing with those egos.
Ref Fairtrade, I had an interesting conversation with a farmer a couple of weeks ago who is a member of a Fairtrade co-op (also organic) and he saw CofE as a nice hobby, promotional exercise and as a competition but not as a sustainable approach to selling his crop (although he has been top-20 in CofE in the past). In terms of what Fairtrade brought to his community, he waxed lyrical on the subject without interruption. Interestingly what he did say about CofE was that he was unhappy that cuppers with less than one year’s experience were being used by the national institute for the regional heat prior to the final coffees going to the international panel. Looking at the reports from the regional event and having cupped the coffee I would tend to support his grumblings. That being said he is entering again this year.


Not wanting to sound disrespectful or rude I could give a counter argument to that too. The farmers are cleaver people and will tell what ever roadshow is in town whatever they want to hear. No one is ever going to be 100% happy with any mechanism. I cupped a Nicaraguan that didn't make it to the international jury that was one of the finest cups I've ever tasted. But I also cupped (IMO) the finest coffee's ever, that fills me full of enthusiasm and excitement still today. Coffee that inspires me, that were it not for the COE would have been lumped into a generic Nicaraguan and would never have been tasted by Joe public.

Fairtrade is not without its faults but I would disagree that Fairtrade producers are getting no more when NYC goes above 126,


I question why coffee is treated differently to every other Fairtrade product by given this ceiling regardless of market price, where most are pegged a certain amount above it.

as producers have increasingly begun to insist the contract is normally at sellers call which allows the co-op to make the most of any peak and (FLO contract also requires 15c/lb premium on organic which the general organic coffee market is struggling to obtain these days).

Due to market overload :)
. This in turn will benefit > 1,000 farmers versus the 19 in the Bolivian competition. There are softer benefits to CofE I know rather than just $$$ but you would be hard pushed to see at least some of the logic in this. To return to your point that Fairtrade producers are getting no more when NYC goes above 126, even if this were the case they were getting 126 when the market was in the late 40’s…

But the bone of contention for me is it address none of the quality issues, so where is the incentive. The farmer must ask, I produce rubbish I get the premium I produce good coffee I get the premium. Something like the relationship coffee has got to be better than Fair trade that does have some quality standards to archive.
I agree that there are roasters (and coffee bar chains) out there that do take a tokenistic approach to FT and it probably isn’t the definitive answer to the woe’s of those most dependent on the NYC but I think for a larger proportion of farmers it can make a greater impact than cupping competition / auctions ever will.


But the competition does have a massive impact, because relationships get built and its gets roasters away from the machines and into origin developing there knowledge. It also challenges long held beliefs by coops and farmers that the roaster just wants the cheapest price, and nothing else. Educating them that a well loved and cared for harvest can fetch a premium. Now its up to the big boys to do there bit, but this is a way of the little guy doing theres. I cant change there buying methodology (and couldnt care less about it as I dont drink it) but I can try and address mine. What COE ahas taught me, is when I do have the ability to buy the whole of a farmers crop and have a relationship with them then buying on a quality. But for the time being I can have access to them via the auction process, ranked by “ego's” (sorry only teasing :) ) who I really respect in the industry. Its got to be better when every one works together. I love the fact that rival roasters work together at the cupping table and in buying groups.

No method is going to be perfect, but for the moment I still believe its the best we have.

Steve
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Postby ubo » Sun Feb 19, 2006 9:12 pm

‘Due to market overload’
Agree with you there, the market for ‘organic-only’ certified is static at best.


‘But the bone of contention for me is it address none of the quality issues’
In the case of the co-op I mentioned their coffee is in demand because of its quality hence why they have decided to say ‘pay the FT premium at least or no sale’; good on em I say. And, it makes an enormous difference financially to these communities.

I agree to an extent in that there are a number of co-op’s out there who do sell HB’s for instance via FT and sell SHB’s conventionally at a premium, maximises their revenue in the short term. Much the same as there are roasters who simply order FT coffee not even on description but on origin, e.g. I’ll sell Costa Rica Fairtrade and I couldn’t given a monkey’s whether it is an HB, SHB, or a fine Tarrazu just as long as it will keep my Guardian reading clientele off my back…

But, there are also co-op’s (many of whom have CofE finalist’s or equivalent as members) who care about quality, need repeat sales to importers / roasters on the basis of quality – it is therefore unfair to label all Fairtrade buying relationships as not encouraging quality. The fact that in spirit at least the FLO contract demands long term relationships means that there is the opportunity to work on quality for both parties – it’s up to them whether they grasp that or not.


‘No method is going to be perfect, but for the moment I still believe its the best we have’
And there we will have to differ…
:lol:
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Postby JulieJayne » Mon Feb 20, 2006 4:42 pm

On the subject of Fair-Trade, I have to say, this may well be good for the farmers, and I hope it is, but for retailers here in Netherlands I find this a very "unfair trade".

Why? Because we have a chain of shops here in Holland called "World Shops". They sell all sorts of FT products, crafts, etc, and tea and coffee and chocolate. But most of their staff are volunteers, so they have no staff costs and can sell their products far below the price that we have to charge, to break even.

As a result, we carry far less FT products than we would like to. Now where is the Fairness in that?
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Postby kingseven » Mon Feb 20, 2006 7:17 pm

I buy the Guardian on Saturday. Does this make a wooly liberal?

Back to prop - I didn't really mean to focus on prop, I'm more interested in some other specific anosmias.

There are a few interesting ones in a book I have by Beauchamp and Bartoshuk, which I will try and dig out at some point.

My input into the rest of this discussion is minimal because I only shop for myself. I believe in traceability, fair and ethical trading but I will always put cup quality first.
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