I want proof that the cat really sh*ts the beans!

[Joey]

Hi folks!

And again I was asked by a customer today if I know more about that Kopi Luwak from the cats arse...
As always my answer was:

"Well, I know and can order for you a Kopi Luwak, (Kopi = coffee, Luwak = the place where it comes from), but I have no proof if there is a coffee fermented by a cat. I know the story, but to be honest, I have never seen a photo of a cat sh*tting a packed bean and/or a native digging for it.
I don't know about a farm that breeds and feeds these rare animals with coffee cherries, and I also don't know about an overpopulated Island where so many of this species roam around and produce several kilos.
Fact is, that the so known coffee eating animal is a predator or "carnivore" (meat-eater) and does usually not it plants.
Now one might say "but dogs eat grass, too, for digesting".
Yes, but not the amount to make a huge hayball either.
And in times of mass media, I can't believe that nobody has ever made a picture of the "production" or the "harvest".
But as soon as somebody shows that to me (and not a photoshop-ed pic) I may change my mind. Til then I will think of it as a marketing joke."

Now my fellow coffee friends, has anyone of you proof or further information about this treasure and help me get more wise?

Thanks
Joey

(who acidentally almost produced Kopi Joey as she was recently chewing (wet-processing) 3 coffee cherries at the same time and almost swallowed one of the slimily beans inside....)

[ivdp]

Your source is not quite so reliable I would say:

Luwak = the place where it comes from??
What do you mean?

Maybe you should do some Googling first?



Ivo

[Steve]

Most importers of Kopi Luwak will give you a certificate of origin, if they wont I wouldnt buy it. Although not proof I'm happy that it is, what it says.

As a side note if you manage to produce a few kilos of Kopi Joey, I'm sure there will be a market for it

[Joey]

Your source is not quite so reliable I would say:

????? excuse me?????

Luwak = the place where it comes from??
What do you mean?

As in Yemen "Matari": Matari, the area where it comes from
As in Kopi Tongkonan "Toraja": Toraja are the mountains where it's growing....
As in Ethiopian "Yirgacheffe": Yirgacheffe = the region there which gives the coffee the name.
Did you think Luwak is the name of the animal?
That's the region, too.
So I can get Kopi Luwak, too, but I deffinitely know that this one is normally harvested from the trees.

[Joey]

Most importers of Kopi Luwak will give you a certificate of origin, if they wont I wouldnt buy it. Although not proof I'm happy that it is, what it says.

Origin, hmmmm - of the cats A*se? I am sorry, but it is so hard for me to believe that there is such a huge amount of animals that eat so much of it that several importers can sell it....
I really want to believe it though! But it's hard

As a side note if you manage to produce a few kilos of Kopi Joey, I'm sure there will be a market for it

iiiieeeek - that's revolting

[Steve]

There are serveral importers, but as I said only some will produce a certificate of origin, its about trusting your suppliers. We have used these guys for other things for quite a few years now. It also poses an interesting question, is you kenyan form kenya? it could get very complicated.

I think the point is do you trust your importer?

[Steve]

I also read recently that there are some importers useing farms of caged civits to produce it, I dont think I like the ethics of this but its happeneing.

[Gouezeri]

As Ivo says, Googling will produce some results.
Having not seen the cat's digestive system at work for myself I will defer to those who have and take this seriously. What follows is from the abstract of a paper (ah, the joys of Athens and MetaLib!) written for Food Research International 37 (2004) p. 901–912 by Massimo F. Marcone (I can't publish the paper here for copyright reasons, but I have read it and you can buy copies if you really want to). Thus it would also appear that it exists (though caveat emptor as Steve says) and it is being looked into as to whether it would be possible to create a similar coffee from African civets in Ethiopia. I will, however, start to worry when I see reports of an increase of civets in Staffs!

"This research paper reports on the findings of the first scientific investigation into the various physicochemical properties of the palm civet (Kopi Luwak coffee bean) from Indonesia and their comparison to the first African civet coffee beans collected in Ethiopia in eastern Africa. Examination of the palm civet (Kopi Luwak) and African civet coffee beans indicate that major physical differences exist between them especially with regards to their overall color. All civet coffee beans appear to possess a higher level of red color hue and being overall darker in color than their control counterparts. Scanning electron microscopy revealed that all civet coffee beans possessed surface micro-pitting (as viewed at 10,000× magnification) caused by the action of gastric juices and digestive enzymes during digestion. Large deformation mechanical rheology testing revealed that civet coffee beans were in fact harder and more brittle in nature than their control counterparts indicating that gestive juices were entering into the beans and modifying the micro-structural properties of these beans. SDS–PAGE also supported this observation by revealing that proteolytic enzymes were penetrating into all the civet beans and causing substantial breakdown of storage proteins. Differences were noted in the types of subunits which were most susceptible to proteolysis between civet types and therefore lead to differences in maillard browning products and therefore flavor and aroma profiles. This was confirmed by electronic nose analysis which revealed differences between the palm civet coffee (Kopi Luwak) and African civet coffee aroma profiles. Analytical techniques for the authentification of palm civet (Kopi Luwak) and African civet coffee are also explored. It would appear that SDS–PAGE may serve as the most reasonable and reliable test to help confirm the authenticity of civet coffee. Electronic nose data was able to distinguish both civet coffees from their control counterparts and further indicated that processing through the civets gastro-intestinal track substantially modified these coffees."

[Joey]

I know what you mean Steve (Kenya/Tanzania) - but in my case I know I can trust.
Do you have one and if - how does it taste - is it worth it? (speaking of the Kopi L)

Gouezeri, thanks. Interesting text - so ok, I believed that it is possible before, too.
Just not in huge amounts.
But the farms mentioned by Steves also don't make me happy.
I hope people won't demand that coffee in the future too much.
Otherwise I see the same things coming as with goose liver.
(Where the animals get the food shot down their throat to get a sick liver soon)

Creepy.

[Gouezeri]

Surely, the price that it commands is as a result of the reduced productivity: scarcity always increases prices.
However, seeing the prices that it can command, farms are the logical, if disturbing, outcome. Somebody is always out to make a cheap buck. The end result is the same - ethically sourcing our coffee.
Dom

[stevenzaat]

Joey,

I like the way you challenge the subject and the theory and strange that there are no pictures of the digestive containing the beans, but still I trust the theory. I have tasted the beans supplied by Steve and it is special (a very silky taste), but I think it is not worth the money.

But if you want to experience most things in life as I do, I would give it a chance. If you look what you spend in your entire life it is a very small fraction and per liter it is still cheaper than reasonable Champagne! It is just 200% of Jamaican Blue Mountain
Furthermore Steve price is very competitive , much lower than I have seen here at the local roasteries (Steve, this is not a hint to increase the price ) and you can order 125 gram. Do not have high expectations. It is the scarcitiy in supply that increased the price. IMHO because the taste is not that special, the demand had not yet increased that much, that they could further increase the price.
So give it a chance and you can say that you have experienced it.

Best regards,

Steven

[Steve]

I dont think it is worth the money but its well worth the experiance more than anything. I can trust my supplier as they are a very big company with whom I have an exellent relationship, but not every one is as trust worthy, and I'm sure there are people out there making money they have no right to make.

Its a gimmic, it works it raises the profile of coffee in the press (although I'm not sure if it is good publicity), and gets people talking.

[Joey]

Hmmmm. I am really in a twilightzone now.
On one side the saleswoman in me sees the blackboard with the cartoon of the cat on the bar, and some crazy guests trying it out of curiosity.....paying a lot for probably a once in a lifetime experience.
On the other side I would love to stick with my resolution not to encurage projects like animalfarms...
But as we are not there yet... or are we?
Tough one!

Sidenote: my Kopi Tongkonan Toraja is also something very, very special, but People don't like to pay so much for "very good coffee".
Does the "a*se-story" really help selling so much? Steve?

Thanks guey

Joey

[Steve]

I can say that the a*se story has sold over 80kg of £128 a kg coffee, and has raised my profile to being talked about on BBC radio program and printed in the trade press. It has also intorduced some people to my coffee that would never have heard of me otherwise and are now regular customers who do pay for good coffee as well as one with a story.

I have to back this up with I would never buy farmed luwak and have been told that the one I have isnt from the this source I do have some morals

[Gouezeri]

How much a kilo for the morals Steve?