Help with Fracino 1 group

Roasters and roasting

Moderators: GreenBean, Gouezeri, bruceb, CakeBoy

Help with Fracino 1 group

Postby Pitythefool » Tue Dec 02, 2008 8:24 pm

Hello, from reading some of the threads, it seems one of you may be able to help me with a problem im having on a one Classic fracino machine i recently purchased from a well known auction site. -
the machine came to me requireing an element and pump, however the boiler was so badly scaled that the element was stuck in place(ileft it to soak in descaler overnight to remove it) so much for my bargin buy!!
the machne is now back together and has had a new gauge fitted as well. the problem is that when ever it is powered up the group over pressures - 12bar +, i have adjusted pump the group pressure slowly climbs as the boiler heats then pressure shoots up after pouring from group when boiler is up to temp, help im stuck for ideas now???
Pitythefool
 
Posts: 5
Joined: Tue Dec 02, 2008 8:06 pm

RE: Help with Fracino 1 group

Postby CakeBoy » Wed Dec 03, 2008 2:34 am

Welcome to TMC 'PTF':). Is it the head pressure that is shooting up after the shot, or the boiler pressure? If the former (which I think it is), does the head pressure stabilise normally if you don't pull a shot?
www.CakeBoy.co.uk
International muffin blagger

Iberital L'Anna 1 Gp Hand-Fill | Wega Orion 2 Gp | Bezzera 1 Gp | Rancilio Audrey PID | Spidem Trevi
Iberital MC2 Timed | Macap M4 DS & MXA DS | Mazzer SJ | Starbucks Barista Grinder (Dualit E60/Solis 166)
Pinhalense 2x500g Gas Batch/Sample Roaster | Gene Cafe | IMEX CR-100
Aerobie | eSantos | Zassenhaus | Bodum P/Over | Chemex | Hario Woodneck | Timer Filter
User avatar
CakeBoy
 
Posts: 10006
Joined: Tue Oct 18, 2005 10:43 pm
Location: Oxfordshire, England

RE: Help with Fracino 1 group

Postby fred25 » Wed Dec 03, 2008 9:38 am

Can't be of any help there, but just wanted to say a very warm welcome nonetheless! :D
Au réveil, il était midi.
User avatar
fred25
 
Posts: 649
Joined: Mon Feb 20, 2006 7:36 am
Location: sunny manchester UK

Postby GreenBean » Wed Dec 03, 2008 10:59 am

Hi Pitythefool and welcome to TMC. I am not sure from your description that I understand your concern correctly.

Is your concern that you have adjusted the brew pressure to say 9 bars and, during a shot it is reading about 9 bars on the gauge but after the shot you see the group pressure rise well above this? If so you should not be concerned this is not unusual. After the shot the relatively cold water drawn through the pump is locked into the circuit. The temperature of the water will rise and that of the pipework containing it will fall slightly resulting in an increase of pressure due to the thermal expansion of the water and contraction of the pipework. The pressure will continue to rise until the overpressure valve opens.

If you end a shot and wait until the pressure starts to rise then start another shot you should see the pressure drop to the set pressure almost instantly. Nothing to worry about. :D
Image

Izzo Alex Duetto | Gaggia XD 2 Group | Mazzer Super Jolly | La Cimbali Max | Solis 166 | Dalian 1 kg roaster | Hottop P | Hottop B | French Press (several) | Kettle modded, no really, added digital thermometer |
User avatar
GreenBean
 
Posts: 2215
Joined: Wed Jan 03, 2007 2:15 pm
Location: Chester

Postby RobC » Wed Dec 03, 2008 11:20 am

Green bean is spot on with his answer, I have only ever seen Fracino machines do this but I can not see a reason why they exhibit this pecularity where no other espresso machine manufacturer does.

It's nothing to worry about if the the gauge is showing 9bar pressure when you are actually brewing coffee.
Long forgotton Tech and Coffee Equipment guru.
Twitter: @c0ff33a
As I walk through the valley of the shadow of death I take a look at my life and realise there's none left 'Cause I've been brassing and laughing so long that Even my mamma thinks that my mind is gone
User avatar
RobC
 
Posts: 897
Joined: Sat Jan 08, 2005 7:25 pm
Location: Yorkshire, UK

Postby Pitythefool » Wed Dec 03, 2008 5:49 pm

wow, thanks for the info. green bean hits the nail on the head, the pressure is set up to 9 bar when pump runs - and always runs at 9 bar. however the group pressure climbs past 12bar (until the needle hits the boiler pressure needle mounting point!) is this still ok? if so i should order a spare gauge!!! i cannot see it lasting long, this would also explain the requirement for new gauge when i purchased the machine.
the group does not release this high pressure - how should it do this?
should it bypass group valve?
many thanks to you all again, PTF
Pitythefool
 
Posts: 5
Joined: Tue Dec 02, 2008 8:06 pm

Postby GreenBean » Wed Dec 03, 2008 9:30 pm

I do not know your machine so you would be better getting advice from RobC or others but, from what you say, it sounds as though your overpressure valve (probably better referred to as an expansion valve) is set at too high a pressure or is stuck or blocked.

With the brew pressure set at 9 bars the overpressure valve should be set at about 11 or 12 bars. On my machine the brew pressure is set at 9 bars, the overpressure valve at 12 bars and the pressure gauge has a red zone from 12 to 15 bars with the maximum working pressure being 15 bars.

Is your pressure gauge an original part? What is the maximum scale reading for brew pressure? Does it have a red zone? If so what pressure range does it cover?

Normally these valves discharge to the drain but it only takes a tiny drop of water to depressure the circuit so you will not see it.

If the pressure is rising past the maximum on the gauge then I suggest you reduce the overpressure valve setting to 11 bars (or less if you have a red zone starting at a lower pressure). If this is not possible because the valve is blocked then it will need to be removed and descaled/cleaned.
Image

Izzo Alex Duetto | Gaggia XD 2 Group | Mazzer Super Jolly | La Cimbali Max | Solis 166 | Dalian 1 kg roaster | Hottop P | Hottop B | French Press (several) | Kettle modded, no really, added digital thermometer |
User avatar
GreenBean
 
Posts: 2215
Joined: Wed Jan 03, 2007 2:15 pm
Location: Chester

Postby lukas » Wed Dec 03, 2008 9:43 pm

Welcome to the madhouse!
Lukas

This week I like my coffee luke-warm.
--
Newest kit: Ghibli R-15
User avatar
lukas
 
Posts: 2798
Joined: Mon Jul 25, 2005 8:41 pm
Location: Germany

Postby RobC » Fri Dec 05, 2008 12:00 pm

If it is rising that high then the expansion valve is most likely blocked up with scale or debris, I would contact www.fracino.com the manufacturer and talk to them about resolving the issue.
Long forgotton Tech and Coffee Equipment guru.
Twitter: @c0ff33a
As I walk through the valley of the shadow of death I take a look at my life and realise there's none left 'Cause I've been brassing and laughing so long that Even my mamma thinks that my mind is gone
User avatar
RobC
 
Posts: 897
Joined: Sat Jan 08, 2005 7:25 pm
Location: Yorkshire, UK

Postby JonS » Sat Dec 06, 2008 1:41 pm

I did see this behaviour on my Iberital L'Adri a while back, seemed to start out of the blue. Although it did max out at 12 bar and I did see small drops escaping from the OPV outlet. There's a thread on TMC about it somewhere.

Eventually, I discovered that the seals on the rotary pump had gone, and it was slowly leaking water inside the machine. On replacing the pump, the problem vanished and the machine was back to normal.

I concluded, that as the pump was allowing water to escape, it was being replaced by cold water from the mains water inlet, which caused heating and the related thermal expansion that GreanBean describes, to occur pretty much continuously. Upon replacing the pump, the HX idle temperatures went up as well.

If Fracino machines tend to exhibit this behaviour normally, then fair enough, but also, if you've had to fit significant parts to the machine, etc. then you might just want to look over the plumbing connections and parts in the brew path to make sure that you don't have any slow leaks. I only really spotted mine because of a small patch of water staining under the pump. On removing the pump and looking at the bottom of it, it was obvious it had a leak.

Jon
Iberital L'Adri 1grp semi-auto | Macap MXKR Auto | Mazzer Super Jolly | Hottop Programmable
Isomac Zaffiro w/PID | Isomac Gran Macinino | Mazzer Mini
Scace Thermofilter
Custom-built grinder timer
JonS
 
Posts: 488
Joined: Wed May 09, 2007 12:18 pm
Location: Chesterfield

Postby Pitythefool » Tue Dec 09, 2008 8:13 pm

Thanks to all for your input - i had changed the orignal expansion valve for one (not new) in the bottom of my tool box. This was the fatal error ! i have since removed this to double check, the adjustable seat to tension the spring and close valve was screwed in way to far on comparsion with origanally removed expansion valve. made the adjustment to similar level - result is great coffee with no high pressure drama after pouring!
many thanks again for your input
Pitythefool
 
Posts: 5
Joined: Tue Dec 02, 2008 8:06 pm

Postby daveyb » Sat Dec 27, 2008 6:08 pm

I would ring Fracino and ask them. They are very keen to keep second user machines running and usually Adrian, the ownes son or Frank, the main man will be only too glad to help you.
Managing Director - Adrian Maxwell
Email: adrian@fracino.com
Telephone: +44 (0)121 328 5757
User avatar
daveyb
 
Posts: 130
Joined: Wed Jul 19, 2006 8:05 pm
Location: newcastle, uk


Return to Roasting - Equipment and Techniques

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot] and 20 guests

cron