Roasting

Roasters and roasting

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Postby CakeBoy » Thu Aug 07, 2008 12:06 pm

ianboughton wrote:I do trust that my friend Steve will permit me to make a rare appearance on this forum to mention something which will make steam blow out of his ears. Someone is about to launch in the UK a retailer-roasting franchise; he supplies the roasting machine. He advises potential franchisees (and I quote) that 'It's no harder to use than an atm/cash machine and requires minimal training.'
Steve, I shall leave that there without daring to add any comment !!!
IanB, Coffee House magazine.


It's good to see you popping by :). I think someone recently linked to the site on here Ian - were they proposing IMEX roasters?

We here shall continue roasting at home on an old ATM ;)
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Postby tony99 » Mon Aug 11, 2008 12:27 pm

**** F I R E **** I N **** T H E **** H O L D ****
------------------------------------------------------------

Am being a bit defensive on the PRO2500, here we go........

**** I'm always interested when manufacturers claim that their machines are capable of 'smoke/odour free roasting', especially without the use of external venting?

CakeBoy, I do have first hand experience with this roaster and it really is smokefree also with reduced odour - just enough coffee aroma to tantalise the customers :o) Every 3 months or so I do however need to change the filters.


**** I hope they provide the number for the local fire brigade in the franchise pack!

Ian, The roaster has an onboard battery powered water pump, so if a fire did start in the roaster it can be easily put out at the press of a (big red) button even during a power cut.


**** I'm going to set up the very best fine dining restaurant...<but>...I'm going to buy a micro wave as that cooks food, and no one will taste the difference.

Steve, The automatic roaster (using your analogy) would be like using the very best combinational microwave oven offering micro-wave and fan-assisted convection cooking along with self-cleaning and on-the-fly fine tuning in order to get those "baked beans" just right. But I would remove any plastic ;)

**** It is not so long ago, well say 50 years ago, that the European coffee world consisted of thousands of small roasters, only active locally.

ivdp, I agree with you whole heartedly, it is only recently we have had small independent "specilaist niche" roastiers, and only a while back most coffee houses roasted their own beans. However this certainly isnt for everyone, and it does take time, money, practice and dedication. Technology is allowing in-house roasting to become a reality for those who would like to do so.

Maybe in the UK we are returning to a time where the coffee shop is replacing the pub as the place to meet, talk and socialise. I have already seen first hand this socio-move in Chicago, San Francisco, Shanghai, Beijing, Singapore and Seoul - small coffee shops who roast in-house building a dedicated customer following due to the quality of their coffee and the ability to "customise" roasts to customer's personal requirement.


Mod's Edit: Post edited to remove content derived from commercial website .
Last edited by tony99 on Tue Aug 12, 2008 11:48 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Postby Steve » Mon Aug 11, 2008 1:02 pm

Hi Tony

Welcome to the forum, always good to have new members on board.

I hear your arguments, but I think you know I'm going to disagree.

Good coffee is not something that you can press a button and hope that it performs the same each time. To get great coffee it takes an operator who is attuned to what is happening in the roast and can spot changes. So many factors are involved in roasting (external temperatures humidity air flow etc) that to expect it to be the same each time is impossible. We have automatic profilers here but we never use them and have to over ride them because coffee reacts differently each time we roast it.

It sounds like some of the issues of previous Imex machines have been overcome, and that has to be good news, some of the early models were released to the market too soon.

But one thing that does annoy me, is when people say something that I have dedicated my whole life, trying learn and understand better, can be replicated by the pressing of a series of buttons like an ATM/cash machine. I can testify that its not so simple. It takes many years (of which I'm still at the beginning) to understand and be able to roast true speciality coffee. Sure anyone can roast coffee to for it to be the very best it can be takes much more effort and control.

Soap box any one :)
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Postby JulieJayne » Mon Aug 11, 2008 1:27 pm

Soap Box in the post Steve!

I concede that to roast Specialty coffee perfectly, takes years of practise. But you will never know if you got it "right" until after the roast, rest, grind, brew etc.

And all of these other factors can colour you view of the final product.

These modern shop roasters use the power of computers to give the rest of the world a chance to roast "reasonably". I used to be a Typographer, computers killed the trade. What PCs produce is "good enough" for most people. Hence what was once a mainstream trade, is now a niche art. It happens!

What I have discovered with roasting is that it simply takes too much time and space. You will very shortly have to choose to be a roaster and loose the shop or vice versa.
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Postby Steve » Mon Aug 11, 2008 1:44 pm

JulieJayne wrote:Soap Box in the post Steve!

I concede that to roast Specialty coffee perfectly, takes years of practise. But you will never know if you got it "right" until after the roast, rest, grind, brew etc.


your so right, but this is the only part I can have control over, if we all do our job to the very best then we will be ok.

JulieJayne wrote:These modern shop roasters use the power of computers to give the rest of the world a chance to roast "reasonably". I used to be a Typographer, computers killed the trade. What PCs produce is "good enough" for most people. Hence what was once a mainstream trade, is now a niche art. It happens!


But there will always be a place for the specialist, the aritisan, the crafts man. We have an Ikea really near by but there is a carpenter who we use for some things who is booked up for 6-12 months at a time. I want more from our coffee and by the very fact we all spend time talking about it here we should all expect more.

JulieJayne wrote:What I have discovered with roasting is that it simply takes too much time and space. You will very shortly have to choose to be a roaster and loose the shop or vice versa


Agreed, let specialists do what they do.
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Postby BazBean » Mon Aug 11, 2008 8:07 pm

For me it’s incredibly simple...
If i can’t make it better or with added value why should I try?

There are enough variables for me to screw up after roasting wanted to add to these would melt my mind!

On one hand I read pages and pages on forums of how flavours can be developed or muted depending on how we roast or alter the profile ...an art or developed skill requiring practise and dedication........ Then all of a sudden its all can be replicated "almost" by a computer.

If they can produce an auto roaster that can produce year after year , new blend after blend that are consistently winning or awarded places in UKBC or WBC or many other industry peer awards, then someone please send me that brochure.!

Ok this is not a personal attack per say on him and yes for the record- Steve is a friend and does indeed roast for my shops. In fact has been incredibly important in my success so if i appear a little bias then maybe I am but I would like to think I support the passion involved and the art of the roaster rather than an individual here.

Putting myself in those shoes I know I would react a lot stronger if it was suggested a machine could replace me as a barista.
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Postby espressomattic » Mon Aug 11, 2008 11:26 pm

Steve wrote: "Airline food without the check in"(tm) .


And you could serve Nescafe:

"Airline coffee without the beans"

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Postby Hugo » Tue Aug 12, 2008 8:46 pm

Barry, a machine could never replace either you or Steve. However, I'm not alone in choosing the automatic bean to cup machine rather than risk the gormless milk boiling, nose picking anaemic dork behind the counter of the garishly branded coffee chain at a motorway service station...

Or to put it another way, computers have their place and their level. I know right now a computer would beat me hands down at roasting. I wouldn't put one in Relish, but not everyone in the industry is focussed on the quality of their product and most customers wouldn't know the difference.
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Postby daveyb » Fri Aug 15, 2008 6:33 pm

HAving come into this very late, and just sat and read the entire thread, a few points come to mind.
Firstly, where has the original poster gone to!
Secondly, the world of retail marketing, gimmicks and sales ideas and good coffee are miles apart.
We all know that the art of producing the bean is only a small part in the cycle of drinking good coffee. No doubt some establishments do successfully roast on their own premises, but for many coffee shop owners, their hands are full enough without having trhe hassle of roasting as well. You cannot roast by computer. The input of the man at the helm is vital and no amount of curves and cycles and pressing of buttos can replace the skill neded, even for a home roaster.
It is a quaint idea, in having a roaster in a premises, but I suspect the sort of person who could really utilise this approach would not have ro come to forums to ask others their opnions, which will vary wildly. Therefore, a roaster of any sort the individual feels happy with, to produce small batches of coffee (whether for sale or not) may be a talking point, but itis unlikely to do much to make the tills jingle!
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Postby CakeBoy » Fri Aug 15, 2008 7:23 pm

We always sell the OP on ebay as soon as any thread reaches three pages. We got a reasonable amount for Tristan too. Happy days :P
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Postby technojock » Fri Aug 15, 2008 10:33 pm

I guess advice for Tristran, the original poster from way back, would be to get a small roaster (HotTop?) and try a few roasts in the shop, out of hours. That'll give you an idea of what sort of smoke problem you'll have.

Then pick a coffee, figure out how to roast it the way you like it; then reproduce it, just the way you like it. Then do it 100% of the time. Then do it in the busy shop environment.


That said, if it was my business I wouldn't be keen to tinker with the quality of the product unless I was pretty sure it was a safe bet. Good reputations are hard earned, but bad comes come easy, and stick.
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