Cafe Gene failings

Roasters and roasting

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Postby CakeBoy » Thu Feb 07, 2008 6:16 pm

daveyb wrote:This is all very intyeresting stuff.but..........in about 3 or 4 months the current 240v Gene will have been available in the UK for 12 months or so. I do not suppose we will ever find out the stats, but I bet very few machines with the later firmware and 240 v element are returned, or break down in comparison to the earlier models.


Hopefully not, otherwise the 'fix' will have failed.

daveyb wrote:Which puts me back to the question I asked, of should they have been sold in the early days with theq wrong voltage element? The average guy in the street would be none the wiser about thes eissues, but anyone with a small amount of knowledge will be the wiser. Who is to blame for these early models hitting the streets. Genesis, the importer or the supplier?


I thought Dom's point about voltage ratings was a good one. Did you not think so?

Of course, if Genesis knew the firmware was causing cooling fan issues, no of course they should not have been released by the factory. If they didn't then perhaps Genesis should have recalled the old ones once they had identified and 'fixed' the problem.

Our Gene worked perfectly until the first element died. The 'issue' with the firmware/cooling did not become apparent until after the first element blew. Perhaps when they were released there had simply not been enough testing for that issue to have shown up. We will never know if Genesis knew about the problem or not. I'm not sure whether the importer or seller could have known about the issues if Genesis did not or kept quiet about it.

You mentioned that the vendor sought to resolve the issue. Was there something else that you felt the manufacturer, importer or vendor could/should have done, and have you discussed it with them so that they can seek to help you?


Edit: Typo
Last edited by CakeBoy on Thu Feb 07, 2008 6:33 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Postby bruceb » Thu Feb 07, 2008 6:17 pm

I agree that this probably would quickly become a dogmatic battle, so I would suggest we take it to alt.religion.coffeeroasters. :wink:

A few words of explanation for those who have never owned either roaster and/or who might be interested in buying the one or the other but don't know the details of the differences:

The HT is a radiant-heat roaster. It has an electric heating element similar to those in washing machines, a metal bar with resistance wire inside. In use the element glows red hot and the beans are roasted in a rotating drum with holes in it. There are basically 3 versions of this roaster available in Europe, depending on the way the roasting profile is controlled, ie. simply by chosing a profile by number (so-called "analog" model), by setting the maximum time on a digital readout that also provides information on temperature measured somewhere in the hot air exit path (digital model) and a programmable model that allows user generated profiles to be saved and used in the future (the expensive model).

The Gene is a hot-air roaster. It is not a fluid-bed roaster as are the other commonly available hot-air roasters. Instead it has a drum that more-or-less tosses the beans while hot air is being circulated through it. The controls are very simple to understand and operate and allow changes to be made in real time, ie. on the fly.

Roasting coffee beans with hot air gives different results than roasting them with radiant energy. Hot air seems to favour the "high end" of the flavour range giving a brighter cup than obtained from a radiant-heat roast. The downside of this is that the lower end of the range is weak, ie. the deeper, richer tones are muted. Radiant heat roasters can usually provide both ends of the scale if the roasting conditions are properly varied.

Initially, the Gene roaster was considerably less expensive than the HT and became popular particularly for that reason. In the meantime the basic "analog" HT has been lowered in price and the difference is no longer as dramatic as it was. Both roasters had some "teething problems" in the beginning as can be surmised from some of what has been written in this and other threads here. These appear to have been overcome in the meantime and one can pretty much assume that there won't be serious problems with either of them.

Although it may not have any influence on the quality of the roasting results it is worth noting that the HotTop is primarily made of metal. It is very sturdy and appears to be made to last a long time. The complete casing of the Gene is made of one kind of plastic or another, including the roasting drum. It also appears to be made quite well and has some ingenious features. My personal feeling, however, is that it will have a shorter life expectancy than the HT. This seems to be the case from some of the experiences that a number of TMC members have shared here. Whether this is significant or not will certainly depend upon the number of roasts per month or year performed with the machine.
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Postby espressomattic » Thu Feb 07, 2008 6:34 pm

Hi Dave

You raise some points here I want to address.

You seem to be implying that it is somehow HB's fault, well as Dom has said that is an unproven and IMO unprovable issue.

In a previous thread you told us that you blew up a couple of I-Roasts. Now where does the blame lie there? Was it yours, the maker or the distributor? You were then angling at getting an Alpenroast. What happened there?

You have then written here about your feelings and experience with the Gene. You infer a distributor yet mention no names. It doesn't take a Genius to work out where you bought it from. You have sounded pretty fed up with the Gene and sound as if you are moving towards a HT.

I am interested to know what has suddenly changed your mind here. How is it that you are so suddenly sure of the newer versions?

Have you raised the issue with Genesis? I mean, they are the people who build these things and ultimately the buck stops with them. If there were issues, the fault is clearly theirs.

I see no fault at the feet of any distributor, even the one you haven't named. It was a rushed machine and seemed to work well with parts that could do the job. Have you raised the issue with them?

Have you tried one of the new versions at all. How can you be so confident of it's capabilities if not? If so, how does it stand up?

I have tried roasts from the HT and Gene from experienced HT users and just to be sure, I am pretty competent at roasting, so I am very sure I know what I am doing.

If you could clarify a couple of these points I would personally appreciate this.
Oh I own a Gene and I would vote for a HT any day. Go figure.
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Postby oddlight » Thu Feb 07, 2008 8:20 pm

A couple of posts have noted the Gene was a 'rushed machine' - do you have any evidence for this (other than anecdotal?)

I'm not trying to be provocative, but I do not believe this to be the case.

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Postby CakeBoy » Thu Feb 07, 2008 9:27 pm

I'm not sure it was rushed per se but there was clearly an issue with the firmware controlling the cooling. Whether that could, or indeed should, have been apparent to the manufacturer before release is another question. See my last though, ours did not show any issues for quite some time.

Andy, do you have a Gene and is yours a pre or post 'fix' (March 2007) model? I ask because that seems to make a huge difference to owner perception and satisfaction.
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Postby oddlight » Thu Feb 07, 2008 9:43 pm

Sadly (!), I actually own 3 models - Nov 05, June 06 and a much later one. I've had no hands on experience with the HT so it would be unfair for me to compare.

There is a clear roasting performance between the Nov 05 (with new 240v element) and the two later models (which roast almost identically to each other). I believe others also have the Nov 05 model.

Along with others, my Nov 05 unit suffers from rapid element switching which I was first aware of after changing to a 240v element. Without more information about the Gene thermal design parameters, its impossible to say for sure that the two events are linked.

However, the 230v and the 240v elements are visibly different. I have not examined a 220v element, but I also suspect this is different again.

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Postby Gouezeri » Thu Feb 07, 2008 11:19 pm

Andy, thanks for taking the time to share this detailed information with us, it makes a difference when people can actually compare machines like this and qualify what they are experiencing through proper comparison.
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Postby espressomattic » Thu Feb 07, 2008 11:32 pm

Thanks Andy :D

The rushd aspect was purley my own perception. But there are always bond to be small issues with a new concept/design. All par for the course really. it is good to know that the later models do not have this issue. I guess (Again just a suposition) that Genesis wanted to put out a contender to the HT. Can't blame them for this really.

Mind you, I now no longer want a HT after spending some time down at Rocket and watching the three barrel probat sample roaster....
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Postby CakeBoy » Fri Feb 08, 2008 1:46 am

I don't know if there are any 220v elements in the UK Andy, but I too have seen the differing 230v and 240v elements. You are quite right, imo it would be good if we could obtain more information about the machine; the firmware and element in particular. Did Ron not fudge some sort of solution on his Gene involving the firmware control of the cooling fan some time back? How is that going?
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Postby espressomattic » Fri Feb 08, 2008 1:50 am

Can someone tell me what firmware is :?
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Postby CakeBoy » Fri Feb 08, 2008 2:06 am

It's the piece of software that 'tells' the hardware how to act :D
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Postby espressomattic » Fri Feb 08, 2008 3:17 am

Bit like me and you then?
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Postby eivindt » Fri Feb 08, 2008 8:00 am

I bought my Gene as soon as HB had it up for sale, and haven't had any problems at all with it. I live in a 230V country, I'm not sure what kind of heating element I've got.

Where can I read more about these firmware issues? I didn't even know they existed.



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Postby silron1 » Fri Feb 08, 2008 9:24 am

CakeBoy wrote: Did Ron not fudge some sort of solution on his Gene involving the firmware control of the cooling fan some time back? How is that going?

Just to keep the record straight, if you are referring to me, it was in fact Andy who crafted an adjustment to his original pre March 2007 machine
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Postby CakeBoy » Fri Feb 08, 2008 12:21 pm

I stand corrected, thanks Ron. So same question to Andy please, how is/was the adjustment?
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