Cafe Gene failings

Roasters and roasting

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Postby oddlight » Fri Feb 08, 2008 2:16 pm

I thought it was about time I documented some of this, so here we are.

Many thanks to HB Steve and to DaveC (from the other forum) for their invaluable help.

~A

== Overview ==
There are three main electrical boards; main controller + firmware chip, heater relay board, display board. The controller board has a different transformer based on the voltage (I believe there are two variants supplied 110v, and 230v). The firmware also has Celsius and Fahrenheit variants.

The Gene works by blowing very hot air through an enclosed drum. The controller board simply determines when to turn the drum motor, when to power the fan, and when to apply heat.

There are two temperature sensors on the Gene, mounted inside the metal conduits at each end of the drum. They both appear to be identical parts and are driven by identical electronics. The heating element end sensor monitors the heat from the heater and instructs the controller to kill heating power when the preset temperature is met.
The drum exit sensor is used to determine the indicated display temperature.

The controller board uses a relay to switch mains voltage to the heating element. The relay engages to disconnect power. This means the element is either full on or off and can't be partially on.

The fan is can be driven at two speeds, normal and fast (for cool down). The firmware simply adjusts the reference voltage supplied a voltage regular to vary the fan speed.

A similar approach is taken to change the motor speed (in later revisions). The controller reads the drum end position sensor to ensure the drum always stops in the same position.

The electronics are powered from a voltage regulator feed from a small onboard transformer.

The firmware raises an error if the inputs significantly differ from what is expected. For example, it will report if the heater temp is not changing (dead element) or has risen too much (fire).

The firmware is a common 40pin PIC microcontroller, with a fair number of unused pins.

== Firmware ==
The dates shown are firmware revision/build dates. Obviously, the back panel dates will be later.

The main control board is virtually identical between revisions, however, there are enough changes that a firmware revision will only work correctly in a board of the same vintage. For example, a rev 5 chip will not work correctly in a rev 0 controller board.

Firmware Rev 0 (unmarked - Nov 05)
If the unit comes from a 230v batch (see back panel), the element may rapdily switch on and off from around 200 degrees. This may make is impossible to reach 2nd crack within reasonable period of time.

Firmware Rev 3 (June 06)
Element switching is very significantly reduced and may be non-existent.
Drum rotates at half speed when on its final revolution before stopping.
Motor drive circuitry improved.

Firmware Rev 5 (Dec 06)
Drum now marked 'Max Dry Processed' rather than the cryptic 'Max Brazil'
Motor gear assembly modified.
Internal cable routing improved (this may have occurred in v3 also).
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Postby espressomattic » Fri Feb 08, 2008 5:32 pm

Andy, thanks for all that, I actually read it, inderstood it and now realise that the Gene has been quite a work in progress really. I mean this in a good way too. From what you have said they have looked at improvements and implemented them.

It would have been good for Genesis to feed this back when I was trying to sort my machine out though.

BTW As I type it is whirring away in the background with soem Mexican Organic :D
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Postby TheBreeze » Fri Feb 08, 2008 5:42 pm

thanks for that odd
having had a new mcb in the past month was interesting reading
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Postby CakeBoy » Fri Feb 08, 2008 7:16 pm

Top read Andy, thank you. It makes sense to me too. The big question is can we 'flash' the firmware by replacing the chip or is it terminal on the individual pcbs? :)
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Postby oddlight » Fri Feb 08, 2008 8:49 pm

I don't believe its possible to flash to the firmware for two reasons; the firmware is not publicly available (assuming you have all the kit to flash) and firmware is incompatible with different vintages of controller board.

The chip is removable, so replacing is an option. However, there are controller component differences between revisions, so these would need to addressed (which is not hard, but does require skill with a soldering iron). New controlled boards and firmware chips are available to purchase. I believe the cost is around £130 for the pair (which is currently slightly more than selling on ebay and getting a new one).

There is a fix for the rev 0 problems, but I'm reluctant to publicly discuss because it requires some skill to implement and is potentially dangerous.

It has been pointed out my description indicated that the heater end sensor determined when the element power is cut. This is not true (and in fact can't be true). The exit end does this job as well as feeding back to the display temp. Ooops ;)

So I'm open about this, I've added an article to the wiki of the other coffee forum site containing revised contents of my post. I've had a lot of technical help from the admin of the other forum, and in light of this I feel it is right to collate the information there.

I'll obviously be reading and replying to this thread as well :)

Cheers,

~A
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Postby Gouezeri » Sat Feb 09, 2008 9:37 pm

No problem, Andy and thanks for sharing the info with us here.
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Postby CakeBoy » Sun Feb 10, 2008 9:37 am

Yes, good stuff Andy and thanks for coming to explain what you have found. A couple of people here have had various Genes in pieces and added newer components but as far as I know it appears you are the only person that has thus far made any serious modifications to beneficial effect.
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Postby toast21 » Mon Feb 11, 2008 3:40 pm

Hi guys, the engineer in me is begging to type :) so here goes -

while i know that everyone here's had lots of experience roasting and some have even had both machines, there's potentially 2 assumptions that we may be making when comparing the machines :
1. that our roasting knowledge has remained static in this time
2. the gene technology hadn't changed since the early models. I think most ppl that owned a gene was pre MAR2007 so that's not really an indicator of the current model. I'm only talking about gene changes here because the base model HT's been fairly stable for a while - or at least that's the impression that i'm getting. I'm not going to touch the debate about whether gene should have released in EU (if they actually did push it and not distribute it here as a result of demand by the market) since that's just a big kettle of worms and really not relevant here :)

realistically guys, the answer's kind of sitting in front of us - blind taste test. Get someone who owns and knows how to roast well in a HT and someone who knows how to roast in the gene. Give them each 500gms (in case the first batch is goofed) of 3 or 4 types of beans and get each person to roast the various beans. Then get together and blind taste them. Notice i'm saying MAR2007 genes because that's the benchmark.. you can't buy a pre MAR2007 gene now (and really shouldnt' anyway)

If we REALLY want to push the tests, then we can do multiple trials :
1. Gene vs Standard HT - no variacs
2. Gene vs the new all singing all dancing HT - no variacs
3. Gene vs Standard HT - allow variac
4. Gene vs the new HT - allow variac

ok i think i've typed my quota for the month heh heh
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Postby Bertie_Doe » Mon Feb 11, 2008 7:41 pm

toast21 wrote:realistically guys, the answer's kind of sitting in front of us - blind taste test. Get someone who owns and knows how to roast well in a HT and someone who knows how to roast in the gene. Give them each 500gms (in case the first batch is goofed) of 3 or 4 types of beans and get each person to roast the various beans. Then get together and blind taste them. Notice i'm saying MAR2007 genes because that's the benchmark.. you can't buy a pre MAR2007 gene now (and really shouldnt' anyway)



There have been a number of posts here and elsewhere, which suggest that certain origins may do better in a radiant/hot air machine (Gene) and other varietals do better in a total radiant heat (Hottop) machine.

So if the World Reps for Hottop and Gene arrived at a blind test shoot-out, they would each supply beans that suited his or her machine. In other words, the test would turn into a joke. It would be far better to buy a machine that suited your own taste buds.

In a hypothetical scenario, if 4 people were interested in buying a HT or a Gene and Joe Bloggs owned both machines. The 4 could post 4 x 500 gr samples, of their favourite greens to Joe B. Joe B keeps half and returns 4 x 250gr samples to the 4 interested parties.

It's quite likely that 2 will chose one machine and 2 will chose the other and all 4 will be happy bunnies. There are 100's of bean varietals out there and there would be a lot of controversy over bean choice. Blind testing is something that could so easily be manipulated, by someone with a vested interest. Far better to let the individual decide, using his or her favourite beans.

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Postby toast21 » Tue Feb 12, 2008 5:00 pm

cumberpach wrote:There have been a number of posts here and elsewhere, which suggest that certain origins may do better in a radiant/hot air machine (Gene) and other varietals do better in a total radiant heat (Hottop) machine.


I haven't read up on the various posts but that's exactly my point - were the trials that suggested that one machine gave a different result than the other done side by side? Once again i'm not arguing on this and I also agree that one machine will give a different taste than the other. The questions are from a middle ground trying to increase our (the whole community's) knowledge on what characteristics will be seen by the varoius machines while maintaining as many variables as possible. Ie limiting the differences to the machines themselves.

I agree that if we were to let reps from the two companies choose their own beans, they would pick ones that favour them, which is why I suggested a blind test by consumers using beans that represent a cross section of tastes. Now yes i understand difficulties picking beans etc and the amount of effort involved. Being an engineer though, I find it difficult to reconcile statements about machine x bringing out flavours y in beans z as opposed to machine q unless we're talking apples and apples.
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Postby bruceb » Tue Feb 12, 2008 6:55 pm

This discussion assumes that there are things you can do with certain beans using a hot-air roaster that you cannot do with a radiant-heat roaster and I'm not convinced at all of that. I am convinced, however, of the converse argument.
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I decided I needed a bit of a change so I roasted some Monsooned Malabar. That was a change!
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Postby Bertie_Doe » Tue Feb 12, 2008 8:45 pm

Prior to buying my Hottop, I was fortunate enough to get some sample roasts from a couple of TMCers. On taste grounds alone, I couldn't tell them apart, they were both superbly roasted. The Gene seemed to favour the bright notes and the Hottop the deeper.

My advise to anyone who is trying to make a choice, would be : Do you prefer deeper or brighter notes? Ok so a couple of people have experienced problems with the Gene. There is always a gamble if you become what the Americans call 'an early adopter'. I can't honestly see what a head-to-head between these two machines will prove - unless one of them breaks down during the competition.

No doubt when theBehmar Roaster is converted to 240 volts, there could well be problems with early machines - which will give rise to another demand for a roast-off between the contestants.

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Postby TheBreeze » Tue Feb 12, 2008 9:12 pm

there are already people on coffee geek testing the behmor to destruction :shock:
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Postby espressomattic » Tue Feb 12, 2008 9:58 pm

Don't forget guys...at the end of the day, it is only coffee ;)
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Postby fred25 » Wed Feb 13, 2008 9:56 am

well to misquote a misquote, 'coffee isn't a matter of life and death.... it's much more important than that!' ;) :D
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