Considering different coffee machines

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Considering different coffee machines

Postby Algerian » Mon Nov 21, 2011 12:11 pm

My experience is limited but I do love good coffee. I'm in the market to buy a new machine with a budget of around £800 for machine and grinder. I previously had a Gaggia Classic that a friend gave me. I am prepared to buy new or secondhand.

Those that have caught my eye are the Isomac Zaffiro, which Caffe Italia are selling for £640; the Rancilio Silvia with a Rocky doserless grinder for £693, again from CI; or a La Pavoni Professional Chrome Deluxe PL plus JDL Jolly Doser Lusso Coffee Grinder and a base for £699 from CI.

I like a good espresso but my girlfriend likes her coffee with milk.

Your opinions will be gratefully received.

Thanks, John
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RE: Considering different coffee machines

Postby propofolpete » Mon Nov 21, 2011 2:45 pm

I can't offer much advice but I wish you lots of luck and fun with this John!
What a great position to be in!
There are often bargains to be found on e bay if "new" isn't a priority and look out for folks here selling their stuff- well looked after gear one would expect.
If you need to keep your girlfriend in good milk based drinks then a twin boiler machine is a good idea as the steamer temp won't ruin the essprsso. Others will have better advice to give but the main issue of getting a good grinder you have got on board- the thinking seems to be get the best grinder you can afford and then spend the rest on the coffee machine!
As I said; good luck and have fun!
so it goes...

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RE: Considering different coffee machines

Postby zix » Mon Nov 21, 2011 4:06 pm

#1 (it has to be, sorry if I am being very very very predictable): I don't know anything about the JDL grinder, but some nice ones that have surfaced in threads on this forum in years past: Eureka MCI (Mignon), OE Pharos (hand grinder), Baratza Virtuoso / Mahlkönig Vario, Demoka Minimoka M-205.

#2: There is a very big difference in usage if you compare a Pavoni Professional to a H/X machine like the Isomac Zaffiro. Which one is you? Would you rather like to push the button or would you rather pull the lever? (in my experience, this often comes down to different personalities).

If you are a "pull the lever" person, you should probably look into the lever market more closely, the Pav isn't the best choice - even though it looks good. Other choices here are for example: Ponte Vecchio Lusso, Ponte Vecchio Export.

If you are the other type of guy, there is also, for instance, the Vibiemme Domobar. Isomac had reliability issues some five years ago - but these may be all gone now.
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RE: Considering different coffee machines

Postby easylife » Mon Nov 21, 2011 4:15 pm

If I were starting from scratch with your sort of budget, I'd be very much drawn towards the Fracino Piccino dual boiler machine. It is fairly new, but manufactured by a proper commercial machine manufacturer. I don't have any connection with them other than living only a few miles from their factory. I've seen this offered in some pretty good package deals with grinders for around the £800 mark, and you might find that the manufacturer will do you a deal direct.

Machine details are on http://www.fracino4u.co.uk/featured.asp ... _item_id=1

They list it on the "Shop" page as £660.
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RE: Considering different coffee machines

Postby easylife » Mon Nov 21, 2011 4:17 pm

Zix - unless they've changed it, the Isomac Zaffiro is a single boiler machine I think, so not so suited for milk drinks.
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RE: Considering different coffee machines

Postby zix » Mon Nov 21, 2011 7:20 pm

That's right, easylife, thanks for pointing that out. Algerian, the Zaffiro you suggest is a single boiler just like the Domobar. There are other E61 single boiler machines too, but the VBM and the Isomac are the ones I have experience with.

HX, double boiler or single boiler is also a matter of choice of course, but mostly economic one I surmise.
I made do with a single boiler for several years, it works for milk steaming as well, even though you have to wait for it to heat up and cool down.

This is also a matter of choice, of course. I have never regretted taking the step up to a HX. But then, I got lucky with a Bezzera lever HX, some 15 years old but never used, found on this forum... For a good price.
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RE: Considering different coffee machines

Postby zix » Mon Nov 21, 2011 7:29 pm

By the way, the Piccino looks fine - very nice. A lever machine with simultaneous steaming/coffee making capacity at approximately the same price level is the Ponte Vecchio Lusso. All depending on what type of person you are :)
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RE: Considering different coffee machines

Postby bruceb » Mon Nov 21, 2011 9:45 pm

Whatever you do, think a long time about the Pavoni and then buy something else. You won't regret it.
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Postby easylife » Tue Nov 22, 2011 12:02 am

Just to clarify - the Piccino is not a lever machine. It is a pump-driven dual boiler machine. Fracino do make a lever machine, but that is quite a different animal - and at quite a different price too :wink:
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Postby lsjms » Tue Nov 22, 2011 8:11 am

My friend Janksolid has an perfectly restored, fresh off the bench, La Scala Butterfly. A nice little e-61 hx. I would love it at home. It awaits a buyer who can choose the final paint colour as currently primed body only.

He wanted only 500 I think. Buy a Vario at 320 ish you have a setup to grow with, will never need to upgrade.
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Postby AJJ » Tue Nov 22, 2011 10:10 am

I would not consider a Sylvia as an upgrade from a Gaggia Classic. Its probably a better machine ok but still just a varation on a theme.

I would try to go down the double boiler route even if it meant buying used, particularly if you like your milk drinks.
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Postby sicinius » Tue Nov 22, 2011 1:16 pm

If you get the Isomac, you'll be happy with it. There were, as someone points out, some issues with the first machines sold to the US but they were to do with voltages. Isomacs are made from top quality parts and steel and I'm thinking about getting mine its first service after five years hard labour. They look wonderful, they aren't fiddly and they have large waste trays and a big space below the portafilter for all your different cup styles. Temperature surfing? Don't give it a thought.

I got my Zaffiro cheap £540 from caffeitalia, supposedly with marks on the case but I never really found them. It has marks on the case now, alrighty. I was intending to upgrade to a semi pro double boiler with PiD and all the rest of the sophistication once I was sure I could master the technique.

But it still hasn't happened. These things use quite a bit of electricity and two boilers use twice as much as one. The inconvenience of not having the second boiler is minor if you only make a couple of milk drinks a day. And there's a big increase in running costs. HX is a better option but still I wouldn't jump at that. The temperature on a Zaffiro is pretty much alway right for espresso. A PiD would deface it and be a waste of money.

However, you probably think, by now, I'm going to recommend you get the Zaffiro and I'm not. Enough machines come up for sale here that, if you're not in a tearing hurry you can choose a second hand machine from a victim of upgradeitis for reasonable money.

And if I was doing it all again, that's what I would do.

Wait until a machine you fancy comes up in here.
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Postby JankSolid » Tue Nov 22, 2011 2:33 pm

Thanks LS.

I do, indeed, have a La Scala Butterfly for sale.

I'm just finishing it off today.

It has had a frame-up rebuild with new gaskets and seals throughout.
New ECU. New pump. New lever micro-switch. New cupholder/drip-tray cover. New double filterholder with 18g Synesso basket.

Side and back panels are in grey primer and await the choice of new colour from the new owner.

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Postby easylife » Tue Nov 22, 2011 3:12 pm

sicinius wrote:These things use quite a bit of electricity and two boilers use twice as much as one. The inconvenience of not having the second boiler is minor if you only make a couple of milk drinks a day. And there's a big increase in running costs.


Sorry, but have to disagree based on my own experience. Used to have an Isomac Tea with no boiler insulation whatsoever. Now have a dual boiler machine with both boilers well insulated, and that is more economical, although unfortunately I've mislaid the power usage figures I took on the Isomac as it was some time ago so I can't now quote you the exact comparison. :( Downside is that now the cups don't get as hot.

Don't think you can generalise just based on the type of machine, as boiler sizes, insulation, internal design, temperature control, type of group etc. all come into the equation.
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Postby sicinius » Tue Nov 22, 2011 4:35 pm

Well that didn't take long. A refurbed E-61 HX machine inside your budget.

I'd deffo get a Eureka Mignon ahead of a Vario as your grinder though. I think they're better than the bottom of the range Mazzers (which are more expensive than the Mignon) but that's profound heresy round here.
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