Disappointing Purchase Replacement E61 Shower Plate/Screen

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Disappointing Purchase Replacement E61 Shower Plate/Screen

Postby double_shot » Wed Nov 10, 2010 11:30 pm

Last Saturday morning the group gasket failed on my L'ANNA making for a rather dull weekend in the coffee department. :cry:

Anyway I jumped on the computer and ordered some replacements from Happy Donkey (where else). While I was there I also ordered up a new shower plate thinking I might as well renew both parts.

The service from Happy Donkey all went smoothly and new bits and bobs arrived to recommission L'ANNA.

After ripping open the packaging (I needed a decent coffee fix), I was deeply disappointed with the quality of the shower plate. So much so I felt the need mention it here. My assumption was that the part would be a direct replacement for the old part. The old rule that assumption is the mother of all **** ups proved to be true.

Just to be clear I'm not having a go at happy donkey - although I think it would be useful if they stated the parts are after market parts, and not genuine articles or words to that effect. My failure in due diligence is the primary cause - if I had observed the small image I would probably have spotted the difference...although it's not obvious at a glance.

I took some pictures in order to demonstrate the issues, I have with this replacement part.

This is the image presented on the product page.
Image

The one in the foreground is the new part
Image

In this shot the old part is in the foreground
Image

Sorry for the poor images I'm no David Bailey! I'm not sure how obvious it is, but hopefully you can see that the new part is of a spot weld design, where as the original is of a pressed design with a built in ridge.

My first thought was how inferior the design of the new part is compared to the old one...less ridged in general construction, increased hole size in the mesh and plate, places to trap old grounds and minimal spot welds on such a light gauge material. The major concern was how easy would it be to extract it from the group especially with a new tight fitting seal.

These images may give a better idea of what I'm prattling on about...

Internal of new part
Image

Internal of old part
Image

Close up new part in foreground
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In the image above you may notice the distortion in the top plate of the new part. Although some distortion is present due to the method of construction, the image above is worse as a result of my meddling. I was curious to know how easy it would be to extract it from the group head, as there is no ridge allowing for a good purchase point.

I thought I would fit it anyway and see (I had no intention of using it in anger) if it would come out easily, especially as it would need regular cleaning - due to the grounds traps inherent in the design. I never even drove the seal fully home because it was already obvious that it wasn't going to be easy to remove afterwards. At this point I started to extract the shower screen...hummm I was starting to regret the experiment. I knew the welds and gauge of metal were not adequate enough to take any leverage, certainly not the degree required to remove it with a tight new seal. So I applied pressure higher up the side wall, already anticipating the inevitable slippage of the metal tool I was using. Sure enough the tool slipped and caught the lower ring holding the mesh. The result can be seen in the above image. The tiny spot weld failed instantly and without a great deal of force! Humm I thought I was going to need a bradawl...after taking a couple more goes it loosened enough to get it free. If I had seated it fully I think a bradawl would be the only thing that would shift it.

Personally I don't think this product is of a commercial standard, to be completely honest, I don't thing it would be good in a domestic environment which is my situation.

This image clearly demonstrates the difference in the business end of the two designs. Note the larger holes in the replacement part on the right. You can also see how much finer the hole spacing is on the mesh of the original part. I also wasn't happy with the central rivet on the replacement part.
Image

Hopefully one of the pros on here can correct any errors in my conclusions.

Which brings me to my questions...

When ordering a replacement Shower Screen/Plate is there a particular brand name I should specify?

Where is a good source to purchase the genuine article, or an equivalent unit of a seamless pressed construction, with built in ridge?

I hope this hasn't come across as a rant, as that is not my intention. It's a low cost item which can be chalked up to experience. :oops: I hope Scott and all at HD don't take offence. The point I'm trying to make is that all shower plates are not created equal! With a bit of luck this will save someone from the same disappointment. The good news is L'ANNA is back on form. :D

Thanks in advance for any suggestions.
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RE: Disappointing Purchase Replacement E61 Shower Plate/Scre

Postby GeoffsCigars » Wed Nov 10, 2010 11:36 pm

I have a Rocket Premium Plus, sourced from BellaBarista. I recently talked to Claudette there and put together a little box of spares (things that will predictably need replacing - gaskets etc). One of them was a shower screen. I don't know where it is sourced from, but it looks identical to the original Rocket one, and looks the same as your original. Can't remember the cost, but it was cheap.
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RE: Disappointing Purchase Replacement E61 Shower Plate/Scre

Postby dr.chris » Wed Nov 10, 2010 11:41 pm

Just ran to look - we have the one with the rivet and I would guess the spot welding. It was probably due to be replaced about 6 months ago and I have another in a packet 'in a known location'. Coffee has been fine ^^.

My lovely Anna came direct from Scott about a year ago and I did get the impression that taking one of these off would involve its destruction - hence the need to replace every 6 months or so - only we have been a bit too lazy despite cakeboy's excellent servicing manual.... :roll:
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Postby double_shot » Thu Nov 11, 2010 12:15 am

Geezzzzz, you guys are quick on the draw. :lol:

GeoffsCigars

PostPosted: Nov 10, 2010 - 11:36 PM
I have a Rocket Premium Plus, sourced from BellaBarista. I recently talked to Claudette there and put together a little box of spares (things that will predictably need replacing - gaskets etc). One of them was a shower screen. I don't know where it is sourced from, but it looks identical to the original Rocket one, and looks the same as your original. Can't remember the cost, but it was cheap.


Thanks for the heads up GC, I will add one to my order next time I need something from BellaBarista. The one I purchased was only about £3.00 plus VAT and portion of the carriage cost.



dr.chris

PostPosted: Nov 10, 2010 - 11:41 PM
Just ran to look - we have the one with the rivet and I would guess the spot welding. It was probably due to be replaced about 6 months ago and I have another in a packet 'in a known location'. Coffee has been fine ^^.

My lovely Anna came direct from Scott about a year ago and I did get the impression that taking one of these off would involve its destruction - hence the need to replace every 6 months or so - only we have been a bit too lazy despite cakeboy's excellent servicing manual.... Rolling Eyes


Hey there Doc been a while hope all is good with you and the Mrs. :D

Thanks for the info. Humm If that's the part supplied on a new L'ANNA I'm shocked! I thought mine was a genuine part. My mistake more assumptions on my part proving the age old rule. I think my L'ANNA is a little more mature than yours, maybe there has been a change in the part used?

Now then this manual of Cakeboys you speak of, is it posted here on the forum, or is a funny handshake and exchange of baked goods required to access the wonderful resource? If it's here on the forum I have probably read it in the past, but my poor memory fails me as usual. Any chance of a linky?

Thanks folks you have been a wealth of information as usual.

EDIT: @Dr.Chris I forgot to say...you're probably right. I doubt you will remove a screen of that design without causing damage to it. It would be interesting to know how much coffee grounds and sludge has been trapped between the plates. Maybe you could add some images of yours to this thread after the extraction. I'm curious to know what it looks like after it has been in service. I remove mine regularly, once a month or less when I take the notion to clean out the sludge, that resides inside the screen. Maybe I'm over doing it. :oops:
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Postby bruceb » Thu Nov 11, 2010 5:48 am

Here is an alternative view: Machine manufacturers change parts designs. The one you received from Scott may be the newer version of the original part. Sometimes manufacturers do this to save money and sometimes they do it because their supplier goes out of business or changes the design.
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Postby double_shot » Thu Nov 11, 2010 6:25 am

bruceb wrote:Here is an alternative view: Machine manufacturers change parts designs. The one you received from Scott may be the newer version of the original part. Sometimes manufacturers do this to save money and sometimes they do it because their supplier goes out of business or changes the design.


I had come to that conclusion as indicated in my last post. However if that's the case, I'm staggered that a pro machine would be supplied with such a poor quality component! If it was to shave a couple of quid off the price of a machine in excess of £1k it's laughable. If on the other hand the producer of the part went out of business, maybe we should be buying up their tooling. I'm sure one of the machine manufactures using E61s would have already take that approach, in the event of a failure in their supply chain. IMHO this is a substandard part for any serious pro machine, unless this is intended to be a disposable none serviceable item. Even then I would be loathed to fit this to my machine.

As has already been pointed out there seems to be an alternative source, which would suggest the manufacturer of the part is still operational. Seeing as Dr.Chris has a machine supplied approximately twelve months ago I doubt the alternative supplier is running on old stocks. I could be wrong as is often the case!
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Postby dr.chris » Thu Nov 11, 2010 9:34 am

It was a 2nd hand machine - one of several that Scott had been leasing to a pub chain. Dont think we could quite stretch to a new one (although I guess there is always 'a way'). As I sort of said we havnt yet taken it off - although its long overdue. Some grounds do get stuck between the plate and the body.

In theory we will replace it soon and I will try to remember to post some pics

One of the advantages of the lovely anna is that it is a very generic machine. I would expect that the shower screen shown is a generic E-61 part rather than 'the' iberital' one.

As for the service instructions I PM'd cakeboy and he sent a lot of info back. I thought I had mailed it to you way back when but I will sort something out
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Postby bruceb » Thu Nov 11, 2010 10:48 am

Maybe it's time to contact Scott and ask him what the story is. I guess you could alternatively find another supplier and order one from them.
Three Francesconi (CMA) espresso machines - Rossi, San Marco, LaCimbali, Faema and 2 Mazzer Major grinders- CoffeeTech Maggionlino, Hottop, Alpenröst and HW Precision roasters.
I decided I needed a bit of a change so I roasted some Monsooned Malabar. That was a change!
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Postby dr.chris » Thu Nov 11, 2010 11:03 am

Double shot I mailed you Cakeboy's info - we should probably post it somewhere so its available for others.

Anna is primarily a commercial machine and in general is a lot tougher but has less bells and whistles than an equivalent priced 'prosumer'. I wouldnt be surprised that in a commercial setting this is a part that would be replaced pretty often.

I'll post a pic of the replacement part that I have tonight when I have some time
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Postby double_shot » Thu Nov 11, 2010 4:03 pm

bruceb wrote:Maybe it's time to contact Scott and ask him what the story is. I guess you could alternatively find another supplier and order one from them.


I won't be contacting Scott on this issue! He is a professional, if he is satisfied with the quality of this product and willing to supply it as a pro part under his company name that's his decision. I doubt he would continue with it as part of his core stock, if people weren't placing repeat orders. I won't be a repeat customer in the case of this part I am not upset at HD! I'm also not bothered about £3 all I want is a direct replacement, for what I consider to be a superior part. HD don't offer an alternative, I double checked their website after receiving this one...there for HD/Scott can't help me. I really don't have an issue with HD, I should have been more diligent and assume less. I do however think Scott should offer an alternative to this current stock part. I believe people would pay more for the alternative given the choice.

One of the points of this thread was/is to find an alternative source.

Another point is to share my experience with fellow espresso folk. Which hopefully will save someone from making the same mistake. If I was aware of this, I would have established prior to my purchase what I was getting.

dr.chris wrote:Double shot I mailed you Cakeboy's info - we should probably post it somewhere so its available for others.

Anna is primarily a commercial machine and in general is a lot tougher but has less bells and whistles than an equivalent priced 'prosumer'. I wouldnt be surprised that in a commercial setting this is a part that would be replaced pretty often.

I'll post a pic of the replacement part that I have tonight when I have some time


Thanks for the share dr.chris and to cakeboy for authoring it.

I totally agree with you L'ANNA is a great bit of kit, at an affordable price. Having said that the current price is £1195 plus VAT why not make it £1199 and fit a worthy shower screen? Assuming this is in fact the same part fitted to a new L'ANNA. I have no first hand knowledge of that, but trust what you're telling me from first hand experience.

The following isn't directed at anyone it's just me thinking out loud!

The thing is this part is a false economy regardless of the effects on the end product. I brought my machine second hand so I have no idea of the age of the screen. I have had it in the region of 6 to 8 months, in which time the screen has been removed in excess of 4 or 5 times (not including extra fitting and extraction to take the images in this thread).

I have no idea of the cost of the part originally fitted to my machine, so for arguments sake I will take £8 as a figure I thing it could be less.

Assuming the gaskets are new and tight fitting and a quarterly cleaning regime the true cost could be significantly different. Personally I remove it at least once a month, although I may slip from time to time.

My original cost £8 with a 100% reuse rate additional cost 4 x £0
This part cost £3.00 I will assume a fail rate of 50% additional cost 2 x £3 resulting is an increase running cost of £1.00. The following year I would expect the original to be performing well with 100% reuse the alternative part still fails @ 50% rendering an increase cost of £6.00 pa. With my regular cleaning regime the cost would be far greater.

On top of that the original has no traps for ground, no spot welds (with potential to rust) and provides a nice clean profile inside the portafilter basket and has a greater feel of quality about it.

I wondered off and did a little digging...

This is not exclusive to Happy Donkey, which I had suspected.

Coffee Hit and on closer inspection Bella Barista all supply the same part for E61s going by their website data.

There is a source in the States for one like my original @ $12 usd best I have come up with so far. http://www.coffeeparts.com/parts/526100.jpg

It would be interesting to hear from a machine engineer who knows the full story. Maybe Bruce is on to something - has the manufacturer closed down if so where is the tooling?

Maybe it's just me or a bad coffee weekend has made me grouchy.
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Postby dr.chris » Thu Nov 11, 2010 9:48 pm

This is the replacement screen I got from Scott with the machine
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screen1.jpg
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Postby double_shot » Fri Nov 12, 2010 12:46 am

Hi Chris,

Thanks for confirmation.

I think you would prefer the old style screen. The profile is much better suited to the inside of a portafilter basket. Also because of the pressed design there is no chance of water exiting via the side of the screen mesh.

I will keep an eye out for a direct replacement of the one I have.
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Postby motoman » Fri Nov 12, 2010 9:44 am

I had a similar problem when I ordered a new screen for the La Valentina from the manufacturers. The new screen was quite frankly rubbish. I still use the old, well made, screen which is still perfect after almost five years.

If a manufacturer changed the spec of something I ordered it would not get paid for until it came up to expectation. Take an order away from a reputable European maufacturer and get it cheaper from India or China, you will soon see why we changed from a quality engineering nation to a service and tourist nation.

OK! Now that I have solved the national debt problem I am ready to start on the NHS.
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Postby double_shot » Fri Nov 12, 2010 1:03 pm

Hi Motoman,

The more I think about this the more astonished I get. How can a manufacturer spend time engineering a £1000 plus machine and stick this garbage on the end of it. If I were a manufacturer I wouldn't let a machine out of the gates with this thing attached to it.

IMHO this thing isn't only an aesthetic disaster but the nature of the design is defective. Water under pressure will try and exit at the edge of the screen, between the outer retaining disk and the mesh plate. I suspect there would be a tendency for an increased amount of water, applied to the puck at the edge of the basket. This could increase the chances of channelling at the edge. Water displacement of this nature is impossible, with the encapsulated pressed design of the original. Which leaves me thinking that this new design (for want of a better word (ah monstrosity)) must have a negative effect on the shots.

I think out sourcing is part of the issue, but seriously how could a manufacturer of a pro machine fail to find a plant, who could produce a direct replacement of a similar quality?

The fact that you have had five years good service out of your screen maybe another issue - it's a high quality item that lasts! This new piece of junk is now a consumable, which generates some additional income.

Right on to the NHS...maybe we should pop over to the DavidIcke.com forums for that debate. :)

It's all by design...
Armaments, universal debt and planned obsolescence - those are the three pillars of western prosperity.'
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Why do people so readily accept substandard services, governments and products? All that's required is to say 'NO' and walk the other way!

Time for a coffee me thinks :)
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Postby bruceb » Fri Nov 12, 2010 1:57 pm

This is the reason I would contact Scott about the above part. If he says the manufacturer changed suppliers and the new parts are all that are available, so be it. If he says these are aftermarket parts and are less expensive than the original then one can go looking for the original somewhere else. It has nothing to do with Scott's professionalism or otherwise. I would presume these are the only parts available.
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