chute modification on Macap MC4

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Postby Belgik » Wed Jan 16, 2008 8:17 am

Hi dsc, Brummi and the other gang members... I've been following this thread and just re-read it.

I would like to join in on the doserless funnel project, for my Macap M5, making the doserful into a doserless, please put my engagement on record, thanks very much.

I had, at some previous stage in the life of my grinder, converted it into a doserless one by using the "pouring" part of a plastic soft-drink bottle. It worked fine, but looked lousy, with masking tape around the square ground-coffee exit hole in the main body of the grinder... Now I put the doser back on, the grinder looks nice, but -tchack, tchack, tchack...

Paul (Belgium)
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Postby dsc » Wed Jan 16, 2008 7:59 pm

Hi

well we are indeed lucky, a friend of mine from Caffeprego, a polish coffee forum, informed me that he can make the steel base for me at practically no cost:) woohoo!!

Now the thing to decide is what metal to use for the funnel? The metal spinner I'm in contact with told me that he can make the funnel from brass and we can have it chromed. What do you think of that? That's an additional cost but it would probably look damn good. If not brass we can use steel or aluminium (but it has to be at least 0.5mm thick).

Belgik, great to have you on board:) I'm guessing the M5 is pretty much the same as MC4 but has a doser right?

Oh and I still have to get the doser diameter from Cakey, I will poke him in a minute:) Or maybe you Belgik can measure the diameter of the doser for me, so that the funnel fits perfectly?

Cheers,
dsc.
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Postby Brummie » Wed Jan 16, 2008 9:24 pm

Chromed brass will definitely look the best! I'd go for that.
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Postby Aadje » Wed Jan 16, 2008 10:05 pm

But Brummie, will the funnel for the macap gonna fit on a Mazzer SJ?

Can you ask him what's cheaper: chromed brass or polished stainless steel (which looks the same)? IIRC in order to chrome the brass, the brass must be also polished first.
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Postby lukas » Thu Jan 17, 2008 12:00 am

Chromed brass should have less grinds stick to it than stainless steel. Just a gut feeling though ;)
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Postby Belgik » Thu Jan 17, 2008 9:01 am

dsc wrote:Hi

Belgik, great to have you on board:) I'm guessing the M5 is pretty much the same as MC4 but has a doser right?

Oh and I still have to get the doser diameter from Cakey, I will poke him in a minute:) Or maybe you Belgik can measure the diameter of the doser for me, so that the funnel fits perfectly?

Cheers,
dsc.


Hi dsc, tks above.
The M5 is the same as the M4 (only the bean hopper is a higher model) and yet, it has a doser.

I only read this msg at work, so there is some time-lag; but this evening I will try to make some measurements of the doser and publish them.
On the basis of those measurements, it should be possible to determine whether same would fit on a Mazzer (the original idea being associated with the Macap).

As to the material...
I personally feel that chromed brass is taking it a step too far. There is no "engineering" reason for brass, and chroming it is yet another cost factor.
Not that (polished or not) stainless steel, perfectly hygienic and good, would necessarily be cheaper: it is a very difficult material to "work", I believe. Bear in mind that there must be cut a square hole in the shute wall for a-fitting over the corresponding square exit-hole by which the coffee is expelled from the grinder.
For all intents and purposes, I fail to see what would be wrong with plain aluminium: easy to work (I think), cheap, and ...very important... very easy to drill the holes into (for the screws fixing it to the main body of the grinder).

My two cents...
Paul

P.S. I read that hi-tech Polish workers, (left out after not building Mig 23's or other Russian airplanes any more), are constructing absolutely fantastic aluminium bodywork assemblies for "Cobra" automobiles. Quality is said to be superb, very, very high. The bodyworks are shipped to England, where the (American) engines are fitted, and the cars sold at Porsche-like prices...
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re

Postby dsc » Thu Jan 17, 2008 11:08 am

Hi

well we can go with polished metal as I also think that chrome plating will be quite a lot and will have negative effect on the price of the finished product. Brass is easier to work with, because it's softer that steel, but than again it doesn't have the right colour (on it's own, not chrome plated). Aluminium is also an option, but it has to be at least 0.5mm thick and not polished (which will also cost some money) won't be as smooth as steel and might cause a problem with coffee not sliding down.

As for the steel it is normal not stainless which I doubt is so safe to use with food products.

Cutting that hole might be kind of a problem as well:| I haven't found a solution to it yet.

Cheers,
dsc.
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Re: re

Postby Belgik » Thu Jan 17, 2008 12:05 pm

dsc wrote:Hi

Aluminium is also an option, but it has to be at least 0.5mm thick and not polished (which will also cost some money) won't be as smooth as steel and might cause a problem with coffee not sliding down.

Cutting that hole might be kind of a problem as well:| I haven't found a solution to it yet.

Cheers,
dsc.


It's pretty much your call, steel or ally... "coffee not sliding down aluminium?" ..after having fallen 10 cm down the chute??

The thickness (of the aluminium) should be no problem, bear in mind that the wall thickness of the plastic doser housing (top part, which is fixed to the main body of the grinder) is around 4 mm (if not more, I will measure).

FYG, the -cylindrical shaped- Macap doser is affixed to the main grinder body with two screws, one on each side of the "square coffee hole". At this point, the doser is approx. 4mm thick plastic, perfectly cylindrical. At the part where it is joined with the main body, the cylindrical shape of the doser fits into a corresponding (same diameter) cylindrical "cutout" in the main body of the grinder (otherwise it is impossible to mate a cylindrical side against a flat bodywork: the shapes have to "fit" positive-negative).

So, it is important that the chute be exactly the same OUTER diameter as the doser, otherwise it will not "mate" jointlessly... I think at this point, the situation shold be exactly the same as for any doserless Macap. Please advise...

(Below only FYG - immaterial to doserless Macaps)
Under/below the plastic part of the doser, there is attached the "metal" part of the doser, enclosing the mechanism ("tchack-tchack"). This (aluminium) metallic part has exactly the same (outer) diameter as the plastic part of the doser, and is -at some point below- firmly attached to the grinder main body.
But this is not important for the working purpose of the chute, which will anycase completely supplant the doser, the mechanism of which becomes totally superfluous. There will, probably, remain a "hole" in the main body of the grinder corresponding this precise point, but that will be of no consequence to the fitting or working of the chute, the shape of which will probably to some degree cover that void.

One solution I see to the "square hole" (cutout in the chute) is NOT to make a full 4-sided aperture: the TOP of the square hole can be left out altogether, cutting only a "U" shape from the top of the chute (instead of a full square "hole" within the wall of the chute). Cutting a "U" should be easier than punching out a square hole (punchout from a cylindrical shape!?) AND it has the advantage of leaving some "adjusting play" for adapting to the grinder body. In fact, provided the holes (for the screws) are at exactly the correct lateral distance, the holes could even be vertical "slots", allowing for some "adjustment" as to exactly how "high" the chute be mounted. But indeed, I would leave the holes for the screws up to each participant to do himself, it should be relatively easy with any electrical drill...

You might wish to comment, please read it carefully and with attention, maybe the "doserless" Macap's main body is shaped differently, even though I cannot imagine it would be???

Paul
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re

Postby dsc » Thu Jan 17, 2008 12:49 pm

Hi,

well aluminium has to be thicker because of the shaping process and because it's softer so will bend easily if a sheet of less than 0.5mm is used. I'm not saying it's a disadvantage, I stated that just for information. I also believe that aluminium and steel prices are pretty similar. As for the friction it can be a problem, I'm not saying all of it will stay there, but some might stick. Believe me I've tried various doserless conversions on my older MDF grinder and you would not believe how coffee sticks to stuff, even when the thing is prefectly smooth and polished. It even happens on my doserless MC4.

I'm aware that there's going to be a hole left under the funnel. The same thing happends with the Mazzer replacement chute, that's why they sell an additional plate to cover that hole. I will try to think of something as I will do a card mockup model this weekend and see how it all fits and works.

I do know that the funnel needs to be the same diameter as the doser to make it fit nicely that's why I was asking for measurements of the doser. I mean there's no problem if the difference is less than 5mm, you can still make it fit with the screws that hold it, but I would rather have it fit without applying any force.

I'm pretty sure Macap uses the same bodies and only changes the chute for each model, that being the doser or a spout for the doserless. I did take the chute off of mine and there are two holes for screws and the shape looks like it would take a doser without any problems. I have pictures of the grinder with the chute taken off, so maybe you can take the doser off of yours, make a picture and we can compare?

As for the hole it would look better with a square one, but it will be easier to go with the squared U shaped one. I will think about that one some more and check what the options are (it's pretty hard to cut out anything in an oval shape).

Cheers,
dsc.
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RE: re

Postby Belgik » Thu Jan 17, 2008 2:26 pm

dsc, looks like you are doing just fine, I can tell from reading you last that you "see" it very clearly. Of course Macap don't make different bodies "doser-full" and "doser-less"grinders, and I'm confident enough with you and about it all that I'm quite willing to engage myself on your project, and steel is fine with me if you feel comfortable with it!
I'll try to take pictures and try to put them on the site (this may however take up until the weekend, sorry - I'm very slow with software 'n all).
Measurements I'll do tonight...
Cheers,
Paul
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Postby Belgik » Thu Jan 17, 2008 2:42 pm

Here you can see how a Macap M4 (M5) with doser looks...
(click yourself to the correct machine...)

http://www.iberital.com/noregistrado/fr ... asp?lang=I

Paul
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Postby Belgik » Thu Jan 17, 2008 6:15 pm

OK - here's some measurements.
(Of course, the dozer is measured with it's plastic cover/lid removed!).

Outer diameter of dozer cylinder: 124 mm (that's 12.4 cm, OK :wink: )
(outer diameter is what counts...)
Wall thickness of dozer (plastic upper part) = Abt. 4.5-5 mm (so, the inner diameter of the dozer cylinder is 114 mm, but that doesn't matter I think)

Total height of dozer cylinder: 160 mm.
(constituted of "upper plastic part" of 80 mm + lower "metal mechanical part" also 80 mm)

(Below are measured with dozer NOT removed from grinder, therefore "approx. figures!))
The coffee ejection "square hole" measures
height: abt. 25 mm
width: abt. 20 mm
The top horizontal line of the square hole is located abt. 32 mm below the top edge of the dozer (plastic part). This top edge of the dozer is located abt. 10 mm higher than the upper surface of the main body of the grinder.

The above "square hole" measurements are the ones of the hole in the main body of the grinder. The corresponding "square hole" cut into the (plastic) part of the dozer itself is slightly larger, so
height: abt. 29 mm (extra 2 mm top and bottom more)
width: abt. 28 mm (extra 3-4 mm each side more)

The screws (for fixing the doser) are in fact located about 8 mm away from the bottom angles of the square hole), at 45 degree angle (below and 'away to the side').

The recess (into main body of the grinder), for snugly fitting of the dozer cylinder into the main body of the grinder :oops: :?
this recess has a total height of abt. 150 mm.

This same recess commences (the bottom horizontal line of the recess) starts at a height 110 mm counting from the bottom horizontal edge of the grinder main body (therefore: excluding the rubber feet below the grinder).

Who said a drawing is worth more than a thousand words? :oops:
I invite this be checked and, where necessary, queried, thanks!

Paul
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Postby Brummie » Thu Jan 17, 2008 10:16 pm

Aadje wrote:But Brummie, will the funnel for the macap gonna fit on a Mazzer SJ?

Can you ask him what's cheaper: chromed brass or polished stainless steel (which looks the same)? IIRC in order to chrome the brass, the brass must be also polished first.


As long as the outer diameter is arround 120MM (I guess 124mm as measured by Belgik should be fine.) If we decide to make it out of Aluminium I should be able to change shape a little to make a perfect fit. 140mm (picture DCS) would definitely be too much I'm affraid.

I'll go by whatever material the group chooses though (eventhough I said I'd go for chromed brass. That was just a thought. I hear pretty good arguments to choose something else :D ) As long as the material is non corrosive (so if steel it should be stainless!)

Cutting in the hole should not be that difficult if it can be a rectangular one. I have a smal tooll (like a Dremel) that fits small grinder disks (about 2 CM diameter. With that I cut off the bottom of a cocktail shaker (see previous pictures). Other methods: use a drill and drill holes close to each other in a square/rectangular shape cut the piece out and file it down to the shape you want.
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re

Postby dsc » Fri Jan 18, 2008 8:53 am

Hi

Thanks for the measurements:)

I will change the drawing and post it here, I will also take off the existing chute off of my Macap and do some measuring.

As for the material it can't be stainless steel, don't know why but I'm guessing that the process eliminates the use of it somehow (maybe it's very hard to shape?). I think I will go with aluminium, 1mm thickness to make it sturdy. I'm not sure but I think that the chute on the doserless Macap is also made out of aluminium. It looks good when polished, is light and should be easy to work with when spinning and probably when cutting out the hole + drilling out the holes for the bolts.

There are still some problems with the form, as it needs to be mounted onto the spinning machine and there are some bit and pieces that need to be added. Not doing the form properly will make it useless, so it's pretty important not to make any mistakes at this stage.

Will keep you updated.

Cheers,
dsc.
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Postby Belgik » Fri Jan 18, 2008 9:19 am

As far as I know, stainless steel is almost impossible to "shape". It is very, very difficult material indeed.
Aluminium, fyg even 1 mm sounds not too thick to me (but might be OK). You might want to consider making it thicker (ask the metal people): I'm sure 1 mm aluminium can be hand-bent into ...the wrong... shape very easily!
Take it easy,
Paul
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