What's with the milk lately?

Equipment, technique, or just drinking the stuff

Moderators: GreenBean, Gouezeri, bruceb, CakeBoy

What's with the milk lately?

Postby flimbag » Sun May 16, 2004 4:10 pm

Has anyone else noticed that the milk seems to have been somewhat lousy this week? I can't get a decent microfoam to save my life.

I did wonder whether it was because I'd been reducing my stretching phase in an attempt to do latte art (given my new enhanced crema producing grinder), but even when I stretch for longer, I get rubble on the top and regular milk underneath.

Perhaps it's the warmer weather?
User avatar
flimbag
 
Posts: 100
Joined: Fri Apr 23, 2004 9:25 am
Location: Liverpool

Postby phil » Sun May 16, 2004 4:58 pm

On the infrequent occasions I attempt foaming, I find my results vary hugely according to the milk (just like everyone else says).

I'm getting the best results with Sainsbury's UHT full cream block your arteries up stuff (I don't drink this myself - hopefully Allyson hasn't noticed I've increased her life insurance cover :wink:)
La Spaziale Spazio 2 group semi-auto

La Spaziale Lusso grinder (espresso),
Macap MC4 shop grinder (brewed coffee)
Three Thor tampers
Two Hottops, first since Feb 2003
No partridge, no pear tree either
Conas, Zassenhaus hand grinder....
User avatar
phil
Founder Member
 
Posts: 2321
Joined: Fri Aug 22, 2003 12:05 pm
Location: Swindon, UK

Postby alans » Tue May 18, 2004 10:52 am

Given the time of year it could be that the calfs are getting all the good stuff!

I've never used UHT in coffee, I've always found it flatter and slightly dryer tasting than fresh milk, does anyone else use it?
User avatar
alans
 
Posts: 241
Joined: Fri Nov 07, 2003 11:02 am
Location: Dublin, Ireland

Postby Raf » Tue May 18, 2004 11:29 am

In Belgium, it's hard to find milk that's not UHT processed. I get the best results with full cream milk as well (hardly surprising - anyone try foaming with actual cream yet, btw?)
This week I am eagerly anticipating the first god shots from my La Spaziale machine....

La Spaziale S1, Vibiemme Domobar (retd), Mazzer Mini Electronic, Behmor 1600 230V
User avatar
Raf
Founder Member
 
Posts: 1706
Joined: Sat Aug 23, 2003 9:48 am
Location: Brussels, Belgium

Postby phil » Tue May 18, 2004 11:47 am

I found that the UHT worked better than the fresh stuff, based on two samples from Sainsbury's.

Can't comment on the flavour as I don't drink milky stuff.
La Spaziale Spazio 2 group semi-auto

La Spaziale Lusso grinder (espresso),
Macap MC4 shop grinder (brewed coffee)
Three Thor tampers
Two Hottops, first since Feb 2003
No partridge, no pear tree either
Conas, Zassenhaus hand grinder....
User avatar
phil
Founder Member
 
Posts: 2321
Joined: Fri Aug 22, 2003 12:05 pm
Location: Swindon, UK

Postby carolynb » Tue Jun 15, 2004 3:20 pm

The most consistantly good milk is always the semi-skimmed from Waitrose. (new branch opening soon in Southport Flimbag!) Tesco always seems to have been watered down, like pure cream with a tad of skimmed. When I run out of Waitrose semi I use my daughter's full cream which gives wild froth!
Isomac Millennium & Isomac Gran Macinino
User avatar
carolynb
 
Posts: 41
Joined: Thu Nov 06, 2003 10:06 am
Location: Gloucestershire

Postby kingseven » Tue Jun 15, 2004 3:31 pm

I've recently found out that some places are pastuerising (sp?) twice - which would totally kill the protein.

One clue is to put your ear into the jug as soon as you've finished frothing - if you can hear bubbles bursting - like in a can of coke - then there is a lack of protein and the bubbles can't hold their structure.

M&S milk seems to be the most hit and miss I've come across, but a lot of places source from the same dairies.

I'd like to get hold of some fresh, unpasteurised and see what it was like.
http://www.jimseven.com

I'll never own too many items with which to enjoy coffee.
User avatar
kingseven
 
Posts: 2118
Joined: Tue Feb 24, 2004 12:04 pm
Location: London

Postby HughF » Tue Jun 15, 2004 4:35 pm

We use Waitrose also and I tried full cream for steaming plus our usual skimmed, can't remember if I tried the semi-skimmed - I'll try it next weekend. So far, I've been most happy with their Breakfast Milk - very rich 5% fat channel islands milk (not for normal drinking!) but my results are fairly iffy even with that. (Using the Carezza without the Turbo frother is a bit of a challenge but I'm too stubborn to use it.)

Cheers,

Hugh
Grinders : Macap MXK conical for espresso, Mahlkoenig Vario for Chemex, Macap MC6 (spare when our office was closed) for cafetiere, Zassenhaus Knee Mill for cafetiere when working away from home.
La Spaziale Vivaldi S1 espresso machine. HotTop KN8828P roaster. Chemex manual drip for most brewed coffee plus cafetieres and eSantos.
User avatar
HughF
 
Posts: 1113
Joined: Thu Sep 25, 2003 10:47 pm
Location: Hampshire, UK

Postby kingseven » Tue Jun 15, 2004 4:57 pm

Fat content plays very little role in foaming - other than in taste. Taken to extremes you'll find a fatty milk will hold less air, but create a strong foam, whilst skimmed can hold more air but it will be a more brittle foam.

end of boring ramble.
http://www.jimseven.com

I'll never own too many items with which to enjoy coffee.
User avatar
kingseven
 
Posts: 2118
Joined: Tue Feb 24, 2004 12:04 pm
Location: London

Postby carolynb » Wed Jun 16, 2004 12:50 pm

Not boring at all! I totally agree with you, I have had great microfoam from Waitrose skimmed milk and an absolute meringue from full cream!
Isomac Millennium & Isomac Gran Macinino
User avatar
carolynb
 
Posts: 41
Joined: Thu Nov 06, 2003 10:06 am
Location: Gloucestershire

Postby kingseven » Wed Jun 16, 2004 2:54 pm

microfoam is all about technique. People complain that you can't get microfoam with turbo frothers/panarello attachements but you can if you understand it a bit better.
I will stop now before I wade off on one....
http://www.jimseven.com

I'll never own too many items with which to enjoy coffee.
User avatar
kingseven
 
Posts: 2118
Joined: Tue Feb 24, 2004 12:04 pm
Location: London

Postby flimbag » Sun Jun 20, 2004 6:53 pm

kingseven wrote:microfoam is all about technique. People complain that you can't get microfoam with turbo frothers/panarello attachements but you can if you understand it a bit better.


You won't hear that from me. I can get wonderful microfoam from my Gaggia Classic, with the turbo frother on or off. (It's a little better with the frother off because it's easier to whirl the milk, but the best of all is to leave the frother sleeve on until the milk gets to around 80f, and then take it off and swirl it till it reaches 165.)

In contrast, I can't get any kind of foam at all from my Euro2000 Jr. At the moment, I'm pulling shots in the Euro2000, and steaming with the Gaggia -- but all that will change when my new steam tip arrives. :-)
User avatar
flimbag
 
Posts: 100
Joined: Fri Apr 23, 2004 9:25 am
Location: Liverpool

Postby ianboughton » Mon Jun 28, 2004 6:56 am

Dan Gilmore of Verdi's in Swansea, who won the Brasilia contest last year, tells me that whenever the performance of his milk changes, he questions his supplier (a local farm) as to whether they've changed the cows' feed. Drewry Pearson of Marco in Dublin wrote an article on the subject last year, I recall. If anyone's interested, I can dig the two stories out and post a link to them.
-Ian B
ianboughton
 
Posts: 104
Joined: Wed May 26, 2004 12:05 pm
Location: Cornwall

Postby phil » Mon Jun 28, 2004 10:45 am

I should think we'd all be interested Ian. Thanks - please could you do that?
La Spaziale Spazio 2 group semi-auto

La Spaziale Lusso grinder (espresso),
Macap MC4 shop grinder (brewed coffee)
Three Thor tampers
Two Hottops, first since Feb 2003
No partridge, no pear tree either
Conas, Zassenhaus hand grinder....
User avatar
phil
Founder Member
 
Posts: 2321
Joined: Fri Aug 22, 2003 12:05 pm
Location: Swindon, UK

Postby ianboughton » Mon Jun 28, 2004 1:21 pm

Here it is - apology for the long post.

I fear that only one of those two pieces is on our website – the Dan Gilmore feature is here:

http://www.coffee-house.org.uk/gilmore.html

but I add the relevant paragraphs below:

**

This concentration on milk leads to some fascinating insights.

“Last year I came nowhere in competition, but I read more and more books about coffee, I talked to more and more people, and I learned.

“I learned about milk – we only use full-fat, and do you know that milk is different in the summer because of what the cows are eating?

“If I ask our milkman if his cows are on hay this week, he thinks I’m being silly, but the fact is that if the cows’ diet changes, the milk doesn’t volumise the same way… I should get six or seven cappuccinos out of the jug we use, but if they have to put the cows on different feed, I only get four. We had a full month last year where we just couldn’t foam the milk the way we liked, because it was too thin.”

*

Meanwhile, we published an extract of Drewry Pearson’s article on the same aspects of milk in our February issue, as part of the following story:

**

We are indebted to Dairy Management Inc. of America for identifying the key to the perfect milk for frothing. It is, according to a correspondent in Los Angeles, a machine that weighs around 700 kilos, must be stored outside, and its energy source is the soya bean and grass.

For the just-right foam, you have got to have real dairy milk, according to research conducted by Johnny McGregor, professor and chair of the Department of Food Science and Human Nutrition, Clemson University, South Carolina. To get the right milk, you need the right cow – and he is now said to be in the process of breeding the ‘cappuccino cow’, which will produce perfect milk for frothing.

Reports say that his theory hold that a cow’s diet is essential to the final frothing qualities of the milk. His proposed perfectly-bred cow will be given a soya feed which is ‘manipulated’ by minerals additives and a kind of heat treatment, which will have the effect of making it pass right through the first of a cow’s four stomachs.

The official wording is that ‘milk’s fatty acid composition is achieved either via different lactation stages within cows or varying animal feed’ . What is means is changing the way effect in the way the cow breaks down the fat in its food, is in turn supposed to affect the quality of the resulting milk. In early experiments, a colleague of professor McGregor has already produced different fat yields in milk.

The professor is reported to be a barista himself, and has been exploring foaming and frothing issues for many years.

He is not alone in the general theory – last year’s Brasilia barista champion, Dan Gilmore, says that he questions his milk suppliers closely on the feed that their cows are on, arguing that a change from winter to summer feed will affect the performance of the milk.

In support. Drewry Pearson of Marco Beverage Systems has said that this is due to protein, as the main factor determining the quality and stability of foam.

“The concentration of Beta Lactoglobin, the predominant whey globular protein found in bovine milk, varies throughout the year, depending on the lactation cycle of the cow, with its related hormone changes and also upon the growing season. The concentration of protein levels in the grass fed to the cow is a significant factor in the protein levels of the milk produced.

“The periods of low protein production by the cow are those of early lactation (February to April) and late lactation (September to December). These are months when the milk will not give such good quality froth, but which could be improved with correct feeding.”

Professor McGregor has already done experiments on milk freshness, and says that if milk fat hydrolysis occurs after pasteurization and homogenization, it can inhibit frothing. His experiments and research on freshness have led him advise that milk must be kept at temperatures below 40 Fahrenheit to maintain frothing capabilities, and that of the two main temperature problems found in coffee shops, one is not the barista’s fault.

He advises that some operators do indeed leave their milk out on counters too long, but that a major problem is the unreliability of milk deliveries – before milk has reached the coffee shop, it can have undergone ‘temperature jumps’ up and down, and the barista will be beaten before he starts.

“The specialty coffee industry knows all know about their coffee and about keeping their product fresh tasting by keeping it away from oxygen,” he has told reporters. “We need to increase the knowledge base about the importance of milk temperature.”

*

I’m trying today to get the full text of Drewry’s article. I do hope these help.

-Ian B
ianboughton
 
Posts: 104
Joined: Wed May 26, 2004 12:05 pm
Location: Cornwall

Next

Return to Espresso

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot] and 153 guests