HELP! Short extraction time

[simonp]

Hi,

This is from postings I made in coffeegeek, thought people here might be able to assist.

ORIGINAL POST

I have just tried some new beans (H&V Espresso San Girorgio), which are a darker roast than I have previously used (H&V Bourbon), and I am now unable to get a shot (double basket) over 15 seconds.

I am using a Morphy Richards Roma pump machine, which has "crema enhancing" filter baskets, and an Isomac Maccinacafe grinder.

I have set the grinder to its finest setting, and am tamping as hard as possible, to no avail. With previous beans, and Illy pre-ground (which is not that fine a grind) 20-25 seconds has not been a problem. Thses new beans are very oily, but I don't see how that should affect things.

Am I getting odd effects due to the pressurisng of the basket? The machine does require tamping unlike the pressurised portafilter variety.

When I remove the portafilter, I see a soupy mess in the basket, where previously I would get a dryish puck (after leaving in for 10 minutes or so). I wonder if the oil in the beans is making the tamped grinds break up due to the pressure in the basket, and that the finer grind doesn't help.

I'm just guessing, any theories anyone?

FOLLOW UP POST

OK now I'm really confused! I got a delivery of my previous beans (H&V Bourbon) in the post today, so I thought I'd be fine again. WRONG! I'm still getting gusher shots, now around 12 seconds for a double!
This roast seems slightly oilier than the previos one, but not as much as the other San Giorgio beans.

I also had my tamper arrive today which a friend had made, which is made from aluminium and flat bottomed, much easier to tamp with, great I thought, this will cure my problem, again, wrong, same result.

I have tried tamping very hard, and hardly at all, I have tried fine grind, and very coarse, and virtually no difference. in fact the grind particularly has no effect.

Having timed a blank shot, the water takes the same time roughly as when it has to pass through the coffee, MAD!

I am thinking that maybe my machine has broken, and is delivering too much pressure, would the full 15 Bar of the pump give me this result?

Oh, also the coffe now tastes absolutley awfull, sour and bitter.

HELP!!

Am I missing something? It is almost like the water is getting round the coffe grounds somehow, but I have checked the filter basket for cracks, and have used the sigle basket, so I can't see how it would.

I'll try and talk to the manufacturer of the machine, but I'm sure I will have trouble explaining the problem, and getting them to take the machine back for testing.

Should have done my research before buying, I would not have bought it then. I'm pretty sure the MOrphy Richards unit is either a re-badged Krupps (the 2100 looks mighty similar) or a copy of one, and I know they are poorly thought of.

Oh, well, I'm off to sulk!

SimonP

[phil]

Let's see if I can summarise a bit for you Simon.

• You started getting unacceptably fast shots
• You thought this coincided with a change in beans
• You then found your old beans gave the same result too
• You're grinding as fine as your grinder will let you, and tamping as hard as you can.
• Your pucks are soupy

Hmmm...

Your comments about grind and tamp show that you've thought about the obvious things. Your grinder is reasonable - it's not perhaps the ultimate choice of most coffee afficionados, but I believe it's OK-ish. Our very own CarolynB uses one I believe (although she says she wants a Mazzer - yeah who doesn't ). I'm assuming it's new? If it's old and secondhand it's possible that your burrs are worn. It's odd, but my own need to upgrade my grinder last time was brought on by a fairly sudden realisation that I could no longer grind finely enough.

You've also thought about the beans. Good call. I find that certain beans require a finer grind. For example anything with a fair bit of Bourbon Cachoeira (the basis for the Bourbon espresso) usually needs about setting 9 on my Rocky, while anything with a reasonable amount of aged or especially monsooned beans can require a setting nearer 5. Your findings are a bit extreme for that sort of problem though. Equally stale beans can require a finer grind, but although some of us have a problem with Charlie as a personality, he's a good roaster and unlikely to ship totally stale product.

The only thing I can think of is how much coffee you're putting in your basket. This "crema enhancer" sounds dodgy. However, I've never seen one so I can't comment. What I would suggest is trying to get more coffee into the basket, so that after tamping you can just get the portafilter on the group without leaking. This extreme overfilling should lengthen your shot considerably, and if your grind and tamp are good it should take you into the realms of pretty much choking your machine.

About the only other thing I can suggest is you stick the grinder and the machine in the back of your car and drive north a few miles. We can then have a play with my Rocky (not the best grinder in the world, but pretty fair and mine's a good sample) and my Gaggia TD commercial.

However have a play with overfilling first and let us know exactly how that affects your shots.

Phil

[simonp]

I tried stuffing as much coffee in as I could and the shot time went up to about 15 seconds, better, but still not right.

I'm pretty sure the machine is the problem, as it happened so suddenly. I will measure the brew temp, and try some older non-oily beans, to see what effect this has.

The grinder was brand new 3 weeks ago from Anothercoffee, so should be OK. Perhaps I should talk to carolynB to see how fine the grind should go.

I have my eye on a Silvia on ebay, which would be good if I could get it. Perhaps I could get a refund on the Roma.

If I can't sort my problems, I might take up on your offer, it would be interesting to see the results.

P.S. please ignore any spelling mistakes, I have been down the pub, and it's late!!

[phil]

The grinder was brand new 3 weeks ago from Anothercoffee, so should be OK. Perhaps I should talk to carolynB to see how fine the grind should go.

The grinder should be fine in that case. Talking to Carolyn may be a good idea though as she's pretty clued up.

If I can't sort my problems, I might take up on your offer, it would be interesting to see the results.

Fair enough, let me know.

[kingseven]

Just a few quick thoughts:

Double check the grinder - grind of a little at a fine setting, grind off some at a coarser setting. You should be able to feel the difference between your fingers.

The soupy puck - as mentioned it is usually due to underdosing, though can be a result of the extraction being under temperature (which also produces a quicker shot because the oils in the coffee don't get a honeyed as they should)

The pressured handle is a concern. There are two types of handles (as far as I know). I don't know your machine. There is the very light pressue handle which contains very little metal and with these machines you don't tamp at all. Then there are handles with a small rubber device under the basket. Gaggia have stopped making the crema devices for their domestic machines now (they were there to slow everything down due to the massive mislabelling of coffee in this coutry).

Thinking about it the temp and the grind would be the main issue. I don't think I've typed anything new but I've typed too much not to post!

Jim

[simonp]

I did grinds at coarse and fine when I first got the grinder to check it out, and there is quite a bige difference.

This morning I stuffed as much coffe in to the basket as possible, I had to tamp a bit, then add some more and tamp to full pressure, leaving abour 2-3mm gap, this constituded 15g. If I put in the 2 scoups recommended in the instructions it is only 11g!!
Another thing I remember from before is that I got poor shots if I didn't twist the portafilter in hard enough, and thinking about it this would get the showerscreen closer to the top of the grounds. I turned the brew dial, and lo and behold a 27 second double with dark striped crema!!
When I released the portafilter after about 10 minutes, I had a nice intact dry puck.
I even managed to get pretty fine velvety foam,in the milk, not quite microfoam but close, and pourable enough to give a heart shape, which is a first for me. A very drinkable cappuccino!!

I think the oily beans have had an effect, as I never had to be quite this particular before, and I think that the seal must have compressed some, as I have not had to twist the handle this far previously. It just shows what perseverance and help from the coffegeek and toomuchcoffe guys can do.

Still think I need a better machine though!

Chers all

SimonP

[Ian]

That sounds more like it - 11g is really not enough. 14g is the recommended minimum but most try to cram in as much as possible, hence the popularity of LaMarzocco baskets & triple portafilters etc.


Ian

[simonp]

Well, I won the Silvia auction on ebay, I think I may have paid a little over the odds, but the extra filter basket and the blank for backflushing are usefull, so saved about £140 over a new one.

I'll be after all the advice I can get on the Silvia now!

[michel]

I'll be after all the advice I can get on the Silvia now!

Congratulations on your upgrade Simon...
If you haven't already... read all of Randy Glass his diary, and I doubt if there will be any questions left...
http://www.quiknet.com/~frcn/Coffee/Coffee.html

For what my own experience with Silvia... - although short: 1 year - I never 'loved' a machine more... (due to the fact she was my first real machine I suppose...) And although she had her peculiarities, didn't always do what I expected from her... but when she did (and that was most of the time - after a couple of weeks getting to know each other - ) she is a wonderfull simple, sturdy, great-built machine!

Good luck with it... And just one tip: use fresh roasted beans, no older 7 day's, otherwise Silvia won't give you any crema... (which is a bit strange, I agree, but as my current espresso-apparatus, has no problem with older beans, there has to be something about Silvia, that she makes all her owners home-roasters one day...

[alans]

One thing I would add is that the grinder may need a cleaning, I find if the burrs get clogged with oils etc you can't get a consistant grind, so you always end up with quick shots (and a bitter taste from the rancid oils). Perhaps your over oily coffee left some nice little deposits on the burrs! I'd take the top burr off and give them both a good scrub with a dry toothbrush (and run rice through before I scrub the burrs but check out http://www.toomuchcoffee.com/index.php? ... opic&t=196 for more info on that one).

Home roasting is a necessity, not an option Congrats on the Silvia!

[simonp]

Thnaks, I hadn't thought of the grinder cleaning, I'll try that.

Can anyone tell me how fine a grinder should go? I reckon the finest on mine is a bit finer than caster sugar. I've seen some people on coffeegeek talking about their grind being like flour, but surely that is too fine, it would be like dust.

The home roasting may have to wait, I think my girlfriend will go nuts if I buy any more kit!
Is there any way to roast without buying lots of kit?

Cheers,

Simon

[phil]

Options:

• Oven roasting. Not easy to do well. Ask zix.
• Heat gun and dog bowl. Success seems to depend a lot on your bowl, judging by recent postings. Ask moccafaux.
• Poppers. Again not easy to do well unless you buy extra kit to control the fan and heater a bit better than you get by default. See stuff by mnemonix.
• Lash out 90 quid on an Imex. Easy to use, although Neku and Sunnyfield have had mixed results. Eeffoc loves 'em though.
• I think Coffee Select claim to have some HWPs left (130 - 140 quid)
• Otherwise you're in Alpenröst or Hottop territory (or you build yourself a barbecue drum roaster which is a bit ambitious perhaps)

There are probably other options too. Personally I just said "sod it" and bought a Hottop, but not everyone is as barmy as me!

[michel]

Can anyone tell me how fine a grinder should go? I reckon the finest on mine is a bit finer than caster sugar. I've seen some people on coffeegeek talking about their grind being like flour, but surely that is too fine, it would be like dust.

What I do to find the proper coarsness on my grinder after cleaning it:
I grind very fine and pull a shot. If no coffeegrinds are in my cup, I grind even finer the next time. If there are any coffeegrinds in my cup I grind coarser... This way I'm able to find the right, sweet spot, where grinds don't come in my cup, but can grind as fine as possible...

So I think your grinder should be able to grind that fine, that the grinds will come through the holes of the portafillerbaskets, after which you can start grinding coarser...

[Joey]

What I do to find the proper coarsness on my grinder after cleaning it:
I grind very fine and pull a shot. If no coffeegrinds are in my cup, I grind even finer the next time. If there are any coffeegrinds in my cup I grind coarser... This way I'm able to find the right, sweet spot, where grinds don't come in my cup, but can grind as fine as possible...

So I think your grinder should be able to grind that fine, that the grinds will come through the holes of the portafillerbaskets, after which you can start grinding coarser...

May I add: this is the way to find out "what goes through my basket holes and what doesn't" - but after finding out what your grinder can do, Simon, you should find out what flavours your coffees can develope when ground differently. IMHO, the time the espresso needs to get through the portafilter is the main - but not the only measurement of a perfect espresso.
I have to grind an Ethiopean sidamo mocca coarser then a Brasilian bourbon, for example, but with different tamp pressures I manage to give them both 20-24 seconds through the pf. The Ethiopean wouldn't taste as good if I grind it finer, because I would then have to tamp it lighter and it all gets muddy.... dang, my roaster can explain that better - it's all about the oils and harder or softer beans, yadayada...

I don't wanna sound like a smart ass here - sorry - I just thought Simon should not only focus on techniques, but also experiment with his taste buds. (not all coffees can develope the same crema, for example, so I stopped judging them by it)

Simon, if you want some special roasts / varieties / single origins for testing on your Silvya, I can send you some

Good luck!
Joey

[michel]

Don't worry Joey, your not a smart ass; just smart!