Espresso machine cleaners

[alans]

I've been using satchels of Cleancaf by Urnex for machine cleaning up to now, but I recently bought some Puly Caff Cleaning Powder. The Cleancaf calls itself a “Cleaner and Decscaler”, where the Puly Caff calls itself an “Espresso Machine Detergent”, so do I have to use a separate descaler if I use the Puly?

[phil]

Yes I think so. Certainly my Puly tub says nothing about de-scaling. It's just for cleaning group heads, 3-way valves, that sort of thing.

[maurice]

Different question, but same heading:

Is is OK to use citric acid based descalers, or vinegar, with either a Gaggia Carezzaot a Pavoni Europiccolo?

[phil]

I cannot see any harm in using citric or acetic acid. They are insufficiently reactive (I cannot remember the exact chemical terminology - it's been a lot of years since my A-levels!) to attack metals - that is why they are used as household descalers.

I all the years I had a Pavoni Pro I confess I never descaled it, as I always used filtered water. These days, having read Jim Schulman on the subject of water hardness and flavour extraction, I think things might have been different. We live an we learn.

[Sunnyfield]

I don't understand how the Cleancaf can descale the internals other than the grouphead? That means you still have to descale with citric acid. I use Urnex Cafiza wich is (apparently) very similar to Puly Caff.

[alans]

I'm pouring Clencaf directly in to the boiler and I'll be doing the same with the Puly since I'm on a Pav Pro and can't backflush, hence descale and clean the lot.

Maurice I've been using descaling solutions in my Paovni for five years now with no problems.

[Danny]

I've been following a thread on CG lately about the chrome comming off after a descale/clean. Seems the guy put the two through together *and* left the cleaner in the machine for a little while.

The thinking is that the acid and cleaner reacted somehow and attacked the chrome.
Just a thought, dont descale and clean without flushing fresh water through first.
-D

[Sunnyfield]

Alans, are you sure you want to put Puly in your boiler? It is very aggressive stuff and it leaves a bitter taste as well!

[alans]

....well I was sure. I was assuming it's pretty much the same as Urnex but without the descaler. Basically everything post boiler get coffee oils working their way back so I run the Urnex through monthly (or to be honest more like bi-monthly or quarterly ) and I find that it's the best and easiest way of cleaning the machine.

The process is:
Fill the boiler
Add the satchel of Urnex
Heat it up
Pull 100 ml through the steam wand
Pull 100 ml through the group head
Let it cool down for half an hour
Heat it up again
Pull 100 ml through the steam wand
Pull 3/4 of the remaining cleaner through the group head
Release pressure
Fill boiler thus diluting remaining cleaner with water
Heat it up again
Pull 100 ml through the steam wand
Pull all of the remaining cleaner through the group head
Completely flush boiler
Fill with water
Heat it up again
Pull 50 ml of water through the steam wand
Pull full boiler of water through the group head
Release pressure
And repeat those last six steps until I can no longer smell or taste the cleaner in the water, normally four complete flushes.

That's the process taken from the instructions on the Urnex and slightly modified after web searching what others do. So would it be a bad idea to do the same with Puly?

[phil]

So would it be a bad idea to do the same with Puly?

Can't see why it should be. If it works with Urnex, it'll work with Puly.

Fancy doing an FAQ on "Cleaning lever espresso machines"?

[alans]

I could.... only problem is I'm not sure I could compete with the likes of http://www.pavoniexpress.com/ and I'm not sure I'm at an end point yet, Sunny's got me thinking I could be wrong

[phil]

Competing isn't what we do. Just don't think of it that way.

And I don't think you should worry about Mr S (bless 'im) - he's never had a Pav Pro as far as I know.

[Sunnyfield]

The thing is those sachets of Urnex are not the same as 'Urnex Cafiza' (has no descaler). I do not know the exact difference, but Urnex Cafiza is *VERY* aggressive. I you do not use rubber gloves, you will have chappy hands the next day, it's that bad. Puly is only marginally milder than Urnex Cafiza from my understanding.

Anyway you will taste it and feel the tingle in your mouth if there is some residu left.

Let us know your experience!

[phil]

There's a current thread on alt.coffee about this at the moment. Seems well informed. Have you seen it Alan?

Help with cleaning La Pavoni boiler.

[alans]

I know Bruce and trust his knowledge more than my own, he's the guy that gave me some great info on seal replacement a while back. So looks like the Puly is for all the other coffee cleaning jobs!