I've done some taste-testing...

[michel]

Today I've compared the taste between Giotto and Elektra side by side. I've done the test three times (1e in the morning, 2e at 12 o'clock and 3e after diner..) I made a ristretto on both machines and after that an espresso...
Result:
I prefer the taste of Elektra over Giotto... (in fact I drank all of Elektra's liquid while I only tasted Giotto's...) Not a very unexpected outcome (for me at least), but still: why is it that the lever-mechanism creates such a beautifull/pure/heavenly taste, while the vibe-pump of Giotto creates a lot of crema but has a typical tang (Silvia - also a vibe-pump had this tang too...) to it's taste..? I've used the same beans (adjusted the coarsness of the grind to match each machine... Hell, I wanted the Giotto to win, so I cheated a little bit in favour of Giotto... and have put the Elektra to her 'heating'-limits...).
Conclusions for this moment:
The blend used was: 2/3 Yrgacheffe and 1/3 Sumatra Mandheling (both roasted in to a rolling second crack...), and I could taste both coffee's in the shots of Elektra: smooth, mysterious, sweet and spicy... Giotto's shot's tasted much more flat (I adjusted the pressure-stat even lower) but this could not give me the taste sensation Elektra gave me...
So, Elektra makes the best espresso/ristretto while her foaming capacities are unsurpassed... Giotto on the other hand is much more convenient as she doesn't overheat after two shots... is capable of making americano's (favoured by my wife) and can make more than 1 cup at a time (Elektra makes only 1 espresso at a time as the double basket of Elektra holds just as much coffee as the single basket of giotto...).

Does any of you have experienced the same with a side by side comparison?
(Alans: You perhaps.. )

I'm in doubt now by my article about the Elektra... Was I fair enough? Did I knew what I know now..? Should I change my critisism at Mark..? I mean the taste of Elektra's shots is SO much better that the disadvantages are accepted (for today at least, and with Giotto to back me up when needed... )

So, final conclusion for today..:
-For taste-purists: nothing beats a lever or a rotary-pump machine...
-For morning rush or convenience, nothing beats a heat-exchanger or a double-boiler-machine with rotary-pump...

Michel
(who desired another outcome...)

[HughF]

Very interesting post, thank you.

Can I ask which rotary pump machine you were thinking about? The rotary machine I was dreaming about, the Wega MiniNova, seems not to be sold any longer and the (similar but prettier) Wega Lyra rotary is 250 UK pounds more, i.e. c. 1075 UK pounds (including 17.5% VAT) plus plumbing-in costs - that's a lot...

Cheers,

Hugh

[michel]

Sory Hugh, can't help you as all rotary-pumps seem to have the magnificent ability to make heavenly espresso...

[phil]

Mmm, I can't quite compare like for like here Michel.

On the one hand my old Pavoni Pro, whilst a lever machine, is just not in the same league as your Elektra and I never produced shots with it that I found in any way comparable with those from any pumped machine.

On the other hand, my Gaggia commerical has a rotary pump anyway, so I haven't got much experience of vibe pump results.

I'm going to visit a friend who has a vibe pump machine in just under two weeks. That'll be interesting.....

[phil]

Oh and Michel, if you want to publish a sequel to your original article on Elektra, I think we'd all be very interested indeed.

[alans]

I've never done a side by side unfortunatly and don't really see myself getting the chance to do so here in Dublin, perhaps when we're back in Oz. I think the trick that Ms Pavoni played on me was to change what I liked, you just can't get a standard size, standard strength, espresso, but you can get same supurb extra strong, very short, espresso. So if you want the Giotto to win demand 50ml doubles for the comparison

For my partner's Americano's I lift the lever right up with no pf to get 50ml of hot water, then pull a shot of coffee on to that.

I'd love to do a side by side between your Electra and my Pavoni to see if Phil's right about the Electra being in a different league.

Without being a regular on CG I can't really comment on Mark but I did think you were a little harsh, I thought he fell in love with the Pavoni he reviewed before the Electra so I read it as a lever lover's review. Either you love or hate levers so I don't think any review can be objective, perhaps your origional article was as a hater and the sequal will be as a lover

[michel]

For my partner's Americanos I lift the lever right up with no pf to get 50ml of hot water, then pull a shot of coffee on to that.

Good tip! I'll try it tomorrow...
Assuming Ms Pavoni overheats too: How do you cope with this... In other words: Would you please be so kind to describe your ritual on Pavoni for me... (especially the 'overheating' part and how to make more than 2 or 3 shot's - if you do make them of course...-).

Thanks,
Michel (In love with his Elektra again )

[Raf]

One thing's for sure: that Elektra is one yummie machine.

[alans]

Our morning standard is one americano for Ciara at 8:15am, machine turned off and then one shot for me at 8:45am.

To be honest I just accept that anything after the first three shots will be burnt and give them to people I don't think will notice I've heard of people wrapping the group head in cold wet cloths to try and drop the temperature quickly but I'm content with my work around.

[Sunnyfield]

I am very surprised with your results Michel. Being an engineer I am trying to work out a 'scientific' explanation for it, but I can't. Lever machines should be inferior to rotary pump machines: lever machines never reach constant pressure. Perhaps the pressure is of less importance and the Electra is simply superior in its heating mechanism... still it doesn't make sense. I am not saying you are wrong, but it puzzles and intrigues me.

[HughF]

.....
On the other hand, my Gaggia commerical has a rotary pump anyway, so I haven't got much experience of vibe pump results.

I'm going to visit a friend who has a vibe pump machine in just under two weeks. That'll be interesting.....

I know you've been busy with the new server...did you visit your friend though? Any conclusions if you did re vibratory pump vs. rotary?

Cheers,

Hugh

[mnemonix]

Did you measure the water temp at the groupheads Michel ? (the scientific method of eliminating the variable's not necessary of course if this is simply a test to see which machine gives the best shot under normal usage). I would suspect temperature to be the more likely cause of differences particularly of the 'tang' you mention, rather than the means of providing the pressure. If the Elektra runs hot, maybe the Giotto's running a bit cool -> under extraction -> sourness or 'tang' ??? Just a guess mind.

chris.

[mnemonix]

Comparing rotary and vibe pump machines, might it be reasonable to think that the more expensive rotary pump machines might also have better thermostatic boiler control or other higher quality parts leading to better thermal stability/temperature accuracy again leading to superior shots, though not entirely due to the pump mechanism itself ?

If anyone wants to supply the machines I'm willing to carry out extensive analysis in my kitch... um laboratory

chris.

[phil]

Hugh I did visit my friend - none other than our own Neku - but since the coffee was unfamiliar it wasn't possible to draw any conclusions. You'd need a side-by-side test really I suppose.

[HughF]

OK, thanks Phil. WIth the rotary pump I like the idea of more constant pressures (though some on alt.coffee are trying snubbers with vibratory pumps to smooth them) and quietness plus plumbing-in. It looks more like next year to buy one though.

Cheers,

Hugh