why does it have to be so damn expensive???????!!!!!!!!!

[Guest]

Hi everyone,

I stumbled across the TMC site about a week ago and have done nothing but read your posts and articles ever since! Thanks to you all! Unfortunately, my interest has only served to highlight how horribly inadequate my current equipment is – I have a Krups Novo 2200 and no grinder. Please don’t laugh! Yes, the Krups has a crema enhancer and yes, it has one of those nasty cappucino milk frothing attachments (only two of its many shortcomings) but i was relatively happy with it...........until now!

So I am, of course, thinking of upgrading and would be grateful for your advice. Given that my machine is basically rubbish, would you still suggest investing in a good grinder first and then upgrading the machine later? I’m not sure how much difference good, freshly ground beans will make to an espresso that is poor to start with.

Also, I would like to keep the costs down as much as possible and wondered whether there is any mileage in buying second hand. Would it be a cheap route to some quality goods or just a waste of money? I’m not sure how much this equipment costs to repair and maintain! Some initial research on e-bay has thrown up a potentially reasonable Demoka M203 grinder or a Mazzer Super Jolly, which I probably won’t be able to afford any way! On the machine front, I’m looking at a Gaggia Classic/Evolution or an Isomac Giada, possibly a Rancilio Silvia, although again I suspect that the final price will be out of my range.

Any advice you can give will be gratefully received!

Many thanks,

Cheapskate from Kent (or Lisa if you prefer )

[Davec]

Probably best to read this thread:

http://www.toomuchcoffee.com/index.php? ... pic&t=2792

and of course this, as many a true word is spoken in jest!

http://www.toomuchcoffee.com/index.php? ... pic&t=2801

[motoman]

Unfortunately there is a tendancy for manufacturers to jump on a bandwaggon and flood the market with cheap useless junk. This may work with toasters, irons and microwave ovens but coffee as you have found out is a very precise and difficult process to get right. Grinders have to be precision instruments and the machine to extract the best from the bean has to be built like a tank with parts designed to do one thing only, get the best from your beans. The result is a specialist market catering for us idiots and a limited manufacturing run that has to be priced high in order to get a return on outlay.

You just have to bite the bullet and dig deep into your pocket, then of course you find that a constant quality of coffee requires a lot of careful cleaning and maintenance. Once you achieve coffee heaven then all that work is worth it but for the general mass who want instant results this will never happen so the price will always be high.

Don't give up Lisa, the level of insanity here is infinately variable.

[BazBean]

Hi guest.

If you want a bit of justification into digging deep into your pockets i think about just how much i would spend on poor quality coffee from the outlets and then think it works out more cost effective over time....

Self delusion is a wonderfull thing !

[CakeBoy]

Hi Lisa and welcome to TMC ,

There is no snobbery on these forums. It doesn't matter what equipment anyone uses, we all help each other and share experiences.

You will certainly find a huge improvement if you start grinding freshly roasted coffee beans. I would start with a reasonable grinder and move up from there. What sort of budget have you in mind? It may be possible to get a good machine and grinder combo straight away within your affordability.

All the machines you have mentioned will do a good job for you. It may be that you select a number of possibilities and then buy from the list based on price and availability in order to get the best value.

You should think about joining the forum. You would be very welcome and there are many people that will gladly help you along the road to lovely coffee

[LisaB]

Thank you for all your replies!

I have already tried the 'economics' argument on my other half, which i'm afraid has fallen on deaf ears since 'we already have an espresso machine'. Unfortunately he is the real cheapskate and I am therefore a skinflint by extension!

I would like to spend no more than £200 (ish!) on a new machine and a grinder........not a lot, I know, but I am now thinking of buying a reconditioned machine direct from gaggia (possibly an evolution or carezza) plus a new grinder - maybe an innova or isomac. Buying second hand via ebay is becoming less and less appealing!

Since my guest posting, I have since joined the forum (as LisaB) so look forward to chatting to you all soon!

[PD]

Hi Lisa and welcome. If i were you i'd spend within my budget. It's very easy to get carried away on the equipment front. Your main objective is to enjoy good coffee. Yes, good equipment will allow you to produce better coffee, but where do you draw the line at how much you spend.

I think coffee and equipment is a bit like music and hifi gear. Really good fresh beans and a great machine will make fab coffee, with a bit of experience, the same as good music and highend hifi can give you loads of pleasure with great sound. But if someone said to me, you can have a small radio to listen to music or you can have no music and no expensive hifi gear, i know which i'd choose.

I do know that i own some very good coffee equipment, but i've never looked back at my coffee journey with any regret, and it has taken me this far.

[HughF]

Thank you for all your replies!
snip
I would like to spend no more than £200 (ish!) on a new machine and a grinder........not a lot, I know, but I am now thinking of buying a reconditioned machine direct from gaggia (possibly an evolution or carezza) plus a new grinder - maybe an innova or isomac. Buying second hand via ebay is becoming less and less appealing!
snip

Without a good grinder you will have a very frustrating time wrestling with any espresso machine unlesss you use a crema enhancer which seriously limits the quilaity of espresso produced.

To me, grinders which will last and do a good job for espresso start with the Iberital MC2 at c. £120 which doesn't leave much room for even a reconditioned espresso machine in your budget as the Gaggia Carezza is c. £150 new.

Knowing what I do now, I'd secure a good grinder before even thinking of upgrading your espresso machine. If need be, wait a bit and try to find an Iberital, Rocky, Mazzer or Macap grinder secondhand or reconditioned (budget for a new set of burrs though) then see if what's left gets you a really worthwhile espresso machine - tiny improvements are an expensive way to upgrade. If it doesn't leave enough for a Gaggia Carezza (which I used for 18 months) or better then personally I'd stick with the Krups or get a cafetiere - you will be surprised how much better the Krups' results will be with a good grinder. (If you can remove the crema enhancer you will see the real results of varying the grind - probably not good at first but you will adjust quickly and get better results than you do with pre-ground coffee!)
Then you have decent coffee (if you buy good fresh beans) which lets you take a while to research/pick brains on TMC, hunt for trustworthy secondhand machines or save up a bit more without suffering too much deprivation. Alternatively, use time (and better espresso you will be making!) to persuade your SO into agreeing an increased budget. I disliked my Carezza (which may just reflect my incompetence!) and in an ideal world would save up for a secondhand/reconditioned Silvia (or even an NS Oscar) if I had to start again with a sensible budget.

Cheers,

Hugh

[LisaB]

start with the Iberital MC2

I have looked at the iberital, but i believe it has a stepless burr adjustment and I must admit that scares me a bit! I am hopeless at organisation and know I wouldn't be disciplined enough to mark the different settings for different beans. But I will have another think about it - maybe its not that difficult to keep track?

I was looking to get both a grinder and a new machine within my £200 budget - the Krups crema enhancer is, i think, a black rubber disk which is built into the filter and I have tried to remove it without success! I can't help but feel that I will be cheating myself by continuing with the Krups, even with a decent grinder, as it is not producing 'proper' espresso; it is doing something unnatural with it. The budget issue is, if I'm honest, a self imposed ceiling (my BF has set me a budget of £0, so I am already overspending! Not that I mind, its my money and I'll spend it how I want!). There is some flex, but I wanted to keep the costs down as much as possible as I can see from the forums that its very easy to get carried away and spend loads!

Am thinking of getting a decent grinder that will last a good few years (maybe the iberital, if i think I can manage the stepless thing) and a reasonably priced entry level machine - a reconditioned gaggia (about £100) I think looks good for this? I wouldn't be going too much over budget and at least I would have a proper machine on which to practice my skills (or realise the lack of them). I can then satisfy my (anticipated) urge to upgrade in a year on two by getting a silvia or similar. What do you think?

[Steve]

Get the best grinder you can for your money and a mocha pot or Aerobie and save for that special machine. That would be my advice.

[LisaB]

excuse my ignorance, but what is an Aerobie?

[Steve]

http://www.firebox.com/index.html?dir=f ... =aeropress

V Cool

[Bertie_Doe]

LisaB wrote

Krups crema enhancer is, i think, a black rubber disk which is built into the filter and I have tried to remove it without success!

Removing the crema enhancer or frothing attachment, won't alter the taste of the coffee much. I had a Krups 2020 for about 18 months and it produced quite good coffee, but it's a machine that's very critical on grind, tamping and water temperature.
The biggest jump I had in taste improvement, was when I stopped buying the fancy Italian pre-ground from the local store and started roasting my own.
The following shot was taken by Johnny Kent, using a Krups Gutso (pre Novo series) with the help of a Zassenhaus hand grinder and beans roasted with a £10 heatgun.
An upgrade will give you a higher % of good shots, but if you're getting 100% bad shots with your Krups, then upgrading your espresso machine won't help. I would suggest, in the following order :-
Bean - from Hasbean (espresso blend)
MC2 grinder.
Machine - Gaggia coffee or Classic, some time in the future.
First try and get some good shots from the Krups. Here follows the K.Kent shot (note to Dom, please re-size if necessary).
Quentin

[LisaB]

WOW! What a gadget. Do you have one? Is the espresso it produces really that good?

[LisaB]

sorry, previous post refers to the Aerobie