Machine Selection - HELP please

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Machine Selection - HELP please

Postby johnca » Tue Dec 06, 2005 6:23 pm

Have worn my second Gaggia classic out and have decided to upgrade to 'commercial' quality machine. Think I need a single E61 group head with heat exchanger, manual fill with smallish boiler.

At this point I have shortlisted the following machines which seem to meet my spec., are well supported for spares and should produce good espresso:

1. Iberital L'Anna - 4 litre 2.8kw boiler, rotary pump

2. Fracino Little Gem - 4 litre 2.7kW boiler, vibratory pump

Both cost approx £1,000 inc VAT

Would appreciate any advice comments on the these or other suitable machines .... thanks
johnca
 

Postby HughF » Tue Dec 06, 2005 7:59 pm

4 litres doesn't seem a very small boiler to me! Unless the Fracino has some serious virtues that you haven't listed, I'd definitely go for the one with the rotary pump (Iberital), especially if you like ristretti and don't want to modify your machine's maximum brewing pressure. Most rotary pumps are designed to be run off the mains water directly but can often be used with a large water bottle (and sometimes a pump also - "FloJet" IIRC).

Cheers,

Hugh
Grinders : Macap MXK conical for espresso, Mahlkoenig Vario for Chemex, Macap MC6 (spare when our office was closed) for cafetiere, Zassenhaus Knee Mill for cafetiere when working away from home.
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Postby RobC » Thu Dec 08, 2005 12:47 pm

I think we could do with some other member suggestions for smallish semi-pro machines. My own thoughts are that both the Fracino Little Gem and Iberital are both too big for home use, and more compact machines will still cope with home demand and quality. Of course present company accepted who consider 2 groups more then reasonable sized to fit in the kitchen!

Other semi pro compact HX machines?
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Postby Teme » Thu Dec 08, 2005 4:41 pm

How about a La Cimbali Junior or a Elektra A3? Around €2000 for a relatively compact but heavy duty machine doesn't sound too bad and these are not much larger than an average consumer E61 heat-exchanger machine like an ECM Giotto. I guess the La Spaziale S1 and the Reneka Techno might also be interesting in this price range...

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Thanks for your suggestions ... still not sure what to do!

Postby johnca » Thu Dec 08, 2005 9:15 pm

I need to rethink this one. La Cimbali & Elektra A3 too expensive. The physical size of the Iberital L'Anna is ok but I am now concerned that a 4 litre boiler is too big for home use, even with a 2.6kW heater it has a 10-12 mins warm up time. I tend to switch machine off when not in use (to reduce scaling and save electricity) so warm up time is important for those urgent coffee's. Don't want to spend more than £1,000 if I can help it. Is there a hand fill machine with rotary pump, rather than vibratory?

Don't want to end up with an unreliable machine that spares/service are not readily available for. The Wega Mini Nova looks ok but concerned that it is only 1200W .. is it best to ask this question in main forum now I'm a member?
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Postby Bertie_Doe » Thu Dec 08, 2005 10:14 pm

Think I need a single E61 group head with heat exchanger, manual fill with smallish boiler.


Hi John
The espresso from my Isomac Zaffiro is very good and the agent is most helpful. It will produce good foam, but the only chance I get to practice this skill is when we get visitors.
However, if you are into lattes and regular cappas, I would recommend the Isomac Tea or Rituale http://www.anothercoffee.co.uk/products/item100102.aspx The HX makes them much better steamers than the Zaff. BTW, what grinder are you using?
Regards
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Re: Thanks for your suggestions ... still not sure what to d

Postby HughF » Thu Dec 08, 2005 10:56 pm

johnca wrote:Snip

Don't want to end up with an unreliable machine that spares/service are not readily available for. The Wega Mini Nova looks ok but concerned that it is only 1200W .. is it best to ask this question in main forum now I'm a member?

I liked the Wega Mininova HX Rotary semi-auto a lot when I was researching machines. Noone disliked them or seemed to talk about problems. Pennine seem a nice bunch but it might break your budget at £900 + VAT (+ shipping and excl.installation if not DIY) :
http://www.pennineteaandcoffee.co.uk/mini.html
(This is the comparable Wega Lyra - best of luck finding the £5 cheaper Wega MiniNova on their Web site!)

Cheers,

Hugh
Grinders : Macap MXK conical for espresso, Mahlkoenig Vario for Chemex, Macap MC6 (spare when our office was closed) for cafetiere, Zassenhaus Knee Mill for cafetiere when working away from home.
La Spaziale Vivaldi S1 espresso machine. HotTop KN8828P roaster. Chemex manual drip for most brewed coffee plus cafetieres and eSantos.
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Postby johnca » Fri Dec 09, 2005 1:16 am

Hi Quentin,
My partner and I drink strong cappuccino's so foaming important, usually make 2 double shot drinks each time (so two espressing actions and one foaming). My grinder is Isomac GranMacinino, conical burr which seems to give good consistent grind. Like the look of the Isomac Tea but not familiar with the rest of the spec, I'll check it out with the Ritual. Build quality on my Isomac grinder appears to be of 'domestic' quality, I get the impression it wont last for ever. What the quality of the Zaffiro like?
My aim is to buy a machine that produces perfect cappuccinos, quickly; must be contollable, consistent and built to last. Thanks for your comments, any further suggestions would be appreciated.
Regards ...... John
Iberital L'Anna Auto Hand Fill
Mazzer Mini Electronic A Doserless
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Postby johnca » Fri Dec 09, 2005 1:26 am

Hi Hugh,
Thanks for your comments, I found out about the Wega after talking to Pennine who were very helpful. I didn't envisage plumbing in and have so far only considered hand fill machines, I haven't seen any hand-fills with rotary pumps. The Wega Mini Nova Inox is rotary pump on all models except the hand fill ... what are the costs/benefits of rotary pumps? Do you think I would benefit from selecting a machine with a bigger heater to reduce warm up times? I couldn't find the Lyra so dont know how it varies from the Nova. Again, your further comments are most welcome.
Regars ..... John
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Postby CakeBoy » Fri Dec 09, 2005 1:56 am

I think the Iberital L'Anna hand-fill has a rotory pump because I was asking someone about it recently and I seem to remember that being a feature - though don't quote me on it. It is also a semi-auto so you get the benefit of having control and some inherent consistency.

http://www.iberital.com/home/index.asp?lang=I

Might be worth a look.
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Postby HughF » Fri Dec 09, 2005 2:18 am

johnca wrote:Hi Hugh,
Thanks for your comments, I found out about the Wega after talking to Pennine who were very helpful. I didn't envisage plumbing in and have so far only considered hand fill machines, I haven't seen any hand-fills with rotary pumps. The Wega Mini Nova Inox is rotary pump on all models except the hand fill ... what are the costs/benefits of rotary pumps? Do you think I would benefit from selecting a machine with a bigger heater to reduce warm up times? I couldn't find the Lyra so dont know how it varies from the Nova. Again, your further comments are most welcome.
Regars ..... John

Glad you found that helpful. Pennine said that the rotary models could be run off a (plastic) water tank OK and (I think) could supply suitable ones. Rotary pumps are MUCH quieter, (possibly more reliable?) deliver pressure more smoothly and usually arrive set to correct brewing pressure (8 - 9 Bar) - but do check this with your dealer; this pressure setting means that an excessively fine grind (or a ristretto grind) won't generate the excessive 14 Bar pressures (and consequent poor tasting shots) that most vibratory pumps will.

Vibratory pumps CAN be regulated down to the correct pressures by an OPV (over pressure valve?) but even where these are fitted and adjustable they are often set to open at c. 14 Bar merely as a safety measure. (If you do buy a "vibe" pump machine, look into adjusting the OPV using a pressure-measuring portafilter if at all possible.)
I get MUCH better results with excessively long shots using the 8.5(?) Bar set rotary pump in the S1 than I used to with my Gaggia Carezza and I put it down to this. They aren't as good as a correctly-timed shot but they are still very drinkable - with the Carezza they were undrinkable.

My personal preference would be to go for a rotary pump HX machine rather than a dual-boiler vibratory pump machine, assuming you're not lucky or obsessive enough to get both rotary pump and dual-boiler features...

I've said similar things elsewhere so apologies to anyone reading this twice!

Cheers,

Hugh
Grinders : Macap MXK conical for espresso, Mahlkoenig Vario for Chemex, Macap MC6 (spare when our office was closed) for cafetiere, Zassenhaus Knee Mill for cafetiere when working away from home.
La Spaziale Vivaldi S1 espresso machine. HotTop KN8828P roaster. Chemex manual drip for most brewed coffee plus cafetieres and eSantos.
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Postby HughF » Fri Dec 09, 2005 2:26 am

I can't (for some weird reason - Phil?) edit my post above now so I'll have to add this bit here : the Lyra is extremely similar to the "Inox" or stainless steel cased Wega MiniNova. I'm not sure if there are any noticeable differences at all but Pennine could probably help answer that if you decide to go for one.

Cheers,

Hugh
Grinders : Macap MXK conical for espresso, Mahlkoenig Vario for Chemex, Macap MC6 (spare when our office was closed) for cafetiere, Zassenhaus Knee Mill for cafetiere when working away from home.
La Spaziale Vivaldi S1 espresso machine. HotTop KN8828P roaster. Chemex manual drip for most brewed coffee plus cafetieres and eSantos.
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Postby RobC » Fri Dec 09, 2005 10:05 am

The Wega Lyra is the American term for the Wega Mini Nova Inox. Wega only produce one hand filled one group, which is the Mini Nova. It used to have a plastic composite drip tray and lid, but in the last couple of years they upgraded the body work with polished steel bodywork. You can compare or study reviews on either name as they are both the same machine!

The Vibe pump Mini Nova has a pressure regulator to bring the pump down to 9 bar, most people who own one know this as the excess pressure (and water) is dumped into the drip tray!
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Postby Guest » Fri Dec 09, 2005 10:33 am

Like the idea of rotary pump but not many sub £1,000 machines seem to have it. I really like the L'Anna Semi Auto which seems good value with rotary pump, E61/Hx, 2.8kW heater ... but a 4 litre boiler now seems too big ... in light of advice here. The Wega Inox seems ok but only 1.2kW element and vibratory pump. The Fracino Heavenly may have a better spec with 2.8kW heater hence quicker warm up (Fracino say its about 2 minutes!!) I think the Heavenly has vibratory pump ... not sure about this machine, maybe someone knows it and can advise. So, still not sure what to go for ... my revised spec is now:

Hand Fill Semi Auto
Boiler 1.5 - 2 litre
Heater 2.8kW
E61/Hx (or twin boiler)
Rotary Pump
Robust & Reliable
Budget £800-1000

Maybe there's no such thing within my budget??? Suggestions/comments most welcome, thanks again for assisting my quest

John
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Postby jameso » Fri Dec 09, 2005 10:45 am

I'd be sceptical about a 2 minute warmup. Maybe fine for the boiler, but the whole group needs some warming up to get stable temperature during delivery.
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