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HB18
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Post subject: Bacteria in pf?
 Posted: Dec 01, 2009 - 07:10 PM
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Joined: Dec 01, 2009
Posts: 26
Location: Leeds, UK
Status: Offline
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Had some feedback from a big cheese in the company I work for recently. Loved the shop, was bemused but accepting of the grinding on demand (I don't think he'd seen it before), enjoyed his drinks etc. But a comment about the cloths (actually black towel facecloths - although they have never been used as such!) used to wipe the baskets would apprently be full of bacteria and has told us to find something else. A dishcloth or blue roll were the suggestions, but i fail to see what difference this would make - bacteria being rather small would surely find the dishcloth just as cosy a place to hang out?
Our suspicion is that because the practice of wiping baskets (or machine care of any kind!) is rather uncommon elsewere in the business they only want to use known equipment - right down to dishcloths - however ugly they would look with coffee ground all over.
By 'cleaning' the baskets, are we actually introducing bacteria in our drinks, and if so - what is the solution?
P.S. Cloths are changed nightly and left to dry throughly before being used again. |
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bruceb
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Post subject: RE: Bacteria in pf?
Posted: Dec 01, 2009 - 07:41 PM
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Joined: Apr 04, 2004
Posts: 4210
Location: Northern Hesse, Germany
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Just which bacteria is big cheese thinking of? As a microbiologist I feel quite offended by the idea that a dishcloth would be less susceptible to bacterial infestation than a black facecloth. 
From a hygienic standpoint, however, I think that the clothes, regardless of their nature, should be washed in laundry detergent, rinsed well and dried at night, not reused the next day simply after drying. |
_________________
Three Francesconi (CMA) espresso machines - Rossi, San Marco, LaCimbali, Faema and 2 Mazzer Major grinders- CoffeeTech Maggionlino, Hottop, Alpenröst and HW Precision roasters.
This week I are nutating in my dreams. 
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GreenBean
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Post subject:
Posted: Dec 01, 2009 - 07:51 PM
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Joined: Jan 03, 2007
Posts: 1037
Location: Chester UK
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Personally I would prefer to see blue roll or other disposable material used and not reused but I am way too fussy about cloths around food.
I use kitchen roll to wipe my filter baskets at home and then throw it in the bin. |
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Izzo Alex Duetto | Gaggia XD 2 Group | Mazzer Super Jolly | La Cimbali Max | Solis 166 | Hottop P | Hottop B | French Press (several) | Aeropress (collecting dust) | Kettle modded, no really, added digital thermometer |
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HB18
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Post subject:
Posted: Dec 01, 2009 - 09:32 PM
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Joined: Dec 01, 2009
Posts: 26
Location: Leeds, UK
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Thanks for the replies. I had a hard time trying to work out why one would be worse than another. Current practice is to have 3-4 cloth available, wash the cloth(s) used that day, dry them overnight having put out what should now be a clean, dry one from a couple of days ago ready for the next day, and so on.
What I might now do is check the quality of detergent (as I think it's probably just the cheapest stuff from local tesco).
Perhaps someone would like to invent a truly foolproof method - maybe like a rinser/blowdry pf cleaning device - imagine the possiblities!!! |
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kingseven
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Post subject:
Posted: Dec 01, 2009 - 09:42 PM
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Joined: Feb 24, 2004
Posts: 2096
Location: London
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| If the cloth is correctly used (i.e. only for the dry wiping of baskets and not for benches/spills/sweatcloth) then I am not sure where the bacteria would be coming from that could 'contaminate' the basket. Plus those bacteria would need to withstand some serious heat as the basket can easily get up into the 80C region. Bruce - what kind of temps would be sufficient to kill most bacteria with a 30s exposure? |
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http://www.jimseven.com
I'll never own too many items with which to enjoy coffee.
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dr.chris
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Post subject:
Posted: Dec 01, 2009 - 10:17 PM
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Joined: Sep 17, 2009
Posts: 138
Location: swansea
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Personally I think its all crazy - why?
So there is bacteria on a cloth - which is quite likely in some form or another - you wipe the p/f and some bugs get on the stainless steel. What happens to it?
It cant eat the steel
Coffee is pretty inert to bugs ( I know - I have in the past regularly left coffee grounds in a french press for too long and they only go mouldy if they are wet and even then it takes a week or so.)
Its probably not going to be happy being heated to 90 C or so.
So its not going to grow and its unlikely to get through to the coffee drink in any sort of numbers at all.
I can understand some concerns over the water in other parts of the system - the water tank on my old gaggia could get slightly slimy and there are bugs that are happy in almost any environment you care to mention but I couldnt possibly imagine anyone being poisoned by a dirty p/f |
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In Swansea they have both types of coffee - Segafredo and Lavazza..
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CakeBoy
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Post subject:
Posted: Dec 02, 2009 - 12:16 AM
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Joined: Oct 18, 2005
Posts: 8705
Location: Oxfordshire, England
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GreenBean wrote:
Personally I would prefer to see blue roll or other disposable material used and not reused but I am way too fussy about cloths around food.
I use kitchen roll to wipe my filter baskets at home and then throw it in the bin.
+1 |
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www.CakeBoy.co.uk
This week, I are mostly touched by kindness
Iberital L'Anna 1 Gp Hand-Fill | Wega Orion 2 Gp | Bezzera 1 Gp | Rancilio Audrey PID | Spidem Trevi
Iberital MC2 Timed | Macap M4 DS & MXA DS | Mazzer SJ | Starbucks Barista Grinder (Dualit E60/Solis 166)
Pinhalense 2x500g Gas Batch/Sample Roaster | Gene Cafe | IMEX CR-100
Aerobie | eSantos | Zassenhaus | Bodum Pour Over | Chemex
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kingseven
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Post subject:
Posted: Dec 02, 2009 - 01:45 AM
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Joined: Feb 24, 2004
Posts: 2096
Location: London
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Commercially I couldn't cope with the wastage with this sort of thing - especially with a shop pulling 300+ shots a day (around 100,000 bits of paper a year). Cloths are at least reusable.
(While I am pro recycling - you can't really say that the paper could be recycled, instead it will be downcycled and at some stage become waste product). |
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http://www.jimseven.com
I'll never own too many items with which to enjoy coffee.
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Post subject:
Posted: Dec 02, 2009 - 04:15 AM
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Joined: Feb 10, 2008
Posts: 342
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bacteria need warmth, moisture, and food.
if you deny one of these, then generally you are pretty safe from bacteria growth.
For example you can safely leave butter out of the fridge, not because it has little food (milk sugars) but because of its very low moisture content.
I think lots of hand washing, and specific cloths make for a food-safe cafe. |
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bruceb
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Post subject:
Posted: Dec 02, 2009 - 10:16 AM
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Joined: Apr 04, 2004
Posts: 4210
Location: Northern Hesse, Germany
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kingseven wrote:
Bruce - what kind of temps would be sufficient to kill most bacteria with a 30s exposure?
That would depend upon whether dry heat or wet heat, type of bacteria, etc. Just washing in a household washer is fully adequate if the material is quickly dried afterward. The laboratory answer would be steam, but that has little meaning under these circumstances since spore formers don't come into question here.
The way to grow bacteria (and yeasts and molds) in a towel is to use it over and over again and then let it lie around wet in a warm place. You'll be able to smell the results of bacterial growth after awhile.
The whole thing is more a matter of personal squeamishness rather than a bacteriological problem. Human pathogens are very unlikely to accumulate on a towel under these circumstances. If staff don't wash their hands properly when beginning work, after using the toilet, handling money or taking out the rubbish it makes little difference what towel with which they dry the portafilter. If they have clean hands where could pathogens come from?
In Germany I would guess that there are sanitary codes that would dictate what kind of material and whether disposables or reusables can or must be used. |
_________________
Three Francesconi (CMA) espresso machines - Rossi, San Marco, LaCimbali, Faema and 2 Mazzer Major grinders- CoffeeTech Maggionlino, Hottop, Alpenröst and HW Precision roasters.
This week I are nutating in my dreams.
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CakeBoy
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Post subject:
Posted: Dec 02, 2009 - 11:36 AM
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Joined: Oct 18, 2005
Posts: 8705
Location: Oxfordshire, England
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kingseven wrote:
Commercially I couldn't cope with the wastage with this sort of thing - especially with a shop pulling 300+ shots a day (around 100,000 bits of paper a year). Cloths are at least reusable.
(While I am pro recycling - you can't really say that the paper could be recycled, instead it will be downcycled and at some stage become waste product).
Totally. Paper towels can only be a feasible choice on a home user basis. Like GreenBean, we have just carried over ultra-cautiousness with food to coffee and I accept it's overkill. If we made more than a handful of shots a day, we would have to utilise a cloth. Conversely, with only a few shots each day, it's probably less wasteful for us to use paper than to keep washing cloths properly at night  |
_________________
www.CakeBoy.co.uk
This week, I are mostly touched by kindness
Iberital L'Anna 1 Gp Hand-Fill | Wega Orion 2 Gp | Bezzera 1 Gp | Rancilio Audrey PID | Spidem Trevi
Iberital MC2 Timed | Macap M4 DS & MXA DS | Mazzer SJ | Starbucks Barista Grinder (Dualit E60/Solis 166)
Pinhalense 2x500g Gas Batch/Sample Roaster | Gene Cafe | IMEX CR-100
Aerobie | eSantos | Zassenhaus | Bodum Pour Over | Chemex
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leecb
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Post subject:
Posted: Dec 02, 2009 - 07:34 PM
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Joined: Jan 30, 2006
Posts: 1301
Location: London
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I think we are obsessed with bacteria as a result of the chemical industry trying to get us to buy their expensive germ killing products. I'm well aware that there are many dangerous bacteria around including extremophiles, but most bacteria are anything but harmful if you use care and common sense.
As long as they are regularly cleaned at 60'C with a proper detergent there is no reason why cloths that are only used for pfs should pose any danger to anyone.
PS That's a very fetching hat you've got there Cakes! |
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EspressoSquirrel
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Post subject:
Posted: Dec 02, 2009 - 09:19 PM
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Joined: Sep 25, 2006
Posts: 278
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unless you put raw meat in your portafilter/cloth i don't think theres is anything to worry about. bacteria isn't something to be afraid of.
Simply point out to your boss the fact that anything that does somehow make it in the basket not only has to survive 80+ degrees heat, but 9 bars of pressure and in a highly acidic solution. Its almost an autoclave.
Keeping a separate cloth just for the basket is also the safest thing too, because it avoids the potential for someone to mix it up with a dishcloth, etc. Its cheaper than disposable towels and more environmentally friendly.
If anyone is worried by this they should also be wearing protective gloves while making coffee |
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silvia and rocky
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HB18
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Post subject:
Posted: Dec 02, 2009 - 10:03 PM
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Joined: Dec 01, 2009
Posts: 26
Location: Leeds, UK
Status: Offline
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| Thanks again for all the replies/suggestions. Will be speaking soon with the person who brought up the issue (which isn't really a big deal - but I didn't want to just dismiss it). He's a good chap so will hopefully see that we've taken onboard his concerns, addressed them (better detergent, more cloths in rotation) and that all i'm trying to do is make a better cup of coffee! |
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DrTom
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Post subject:
Posted: Dec 02, 2009 - 10:04 PM
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Joined: Aug 27, 2008
Posts: 395
Location: NE UK
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EspressoSquirrel wrote:
If anyone is worried by this they should also be wearing protective gloves while making coffee
Sometimes I wish I had! Early in the morning a quick singe to the fingertips wakes you up almost as well as a triple!  |
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