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dsc
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Post subject: drippy problems
 Posted: Nov 19, 2009 - 01:48 PM
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Joined: Feb 02, 2007
Posts: 1595
Location: Leatherhead, UK / Gdansk, Poland
Status: Offline
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Hi guys,
I've already asked this question on HB, but as some of you post only here and not on HB I thought I give this a go here as well, hope no one minds (Cakes if this is a problem let me know).
Recently I've noticed that no matter what I do I cannot squize anything interesting (tastewise) from my Elektra. If I set the grinder to produce a nice slow shot (around 30s) I get a drippy extraction which sort of drips forever, takes like 15s to actually get a cone/stream and then it suddenly blonds very fast. I end up with 20-30ml of liquid from a double basket (usually around 16g). I've compared this to some online vids of naked extractions and most streams form with the first few seconds, continue to run nicely for around 15-20s and are still mostly brown at the end. Mine start slow, drip, drip, drip, form a stream and bang after 5s it all goes sideways with bad channelling, squirts and what-nots. If I grind coarser I get a faster extraction (obviously) which blonds before the 20s mark.
Anyone else observed something similar on their machines? I'm suspecting the grinder and ordered some new burrs, but I would be surprised if that's the main reason. It is a Major which only burned through 20-30kg of coffee, probably nothing for such a beast.
Any ideas?
Regards,
dsc. |
_________________
"This week I are mostly nutating..."
Mahlkonig Guatemala for FP/drip, Elektra T1 + Mazzer Major for espresso and a loving, understanding girlfriend:)
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bruceb
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Post subject: RE: drippy problems
Posted: Nov 19, 2009 - 05:47 PM
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Joined: Apr 04, 2004
Posts: 3922
Location: Northern Hesse, Germany
Status: Offline
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I dunno Tom, it's really hard to give someone with as much experience as you have any useful suggestions. I'll try, but don't be offended by the trivial things I'm going to say.
It sounds like you are grinding too fine and/or tamping too hard. I can get the same dribble you describe if I do that, the coffee tastes overextracted and it's not at all enjoyable. The difference between "fine enough" and "too fine" is a very fine line. I'd play around with the grind, but consider the next things as well:
Second thought: Try a different basket, if you haven't already. Try all the baskets you have and see if there's a difference.
Third shot in the dark: What about the coffee? Have you tried different beans? Is there a difference with different beans or is it always the same?
Finally, how's the pressure at the portafilter? If it's way too low you can get these problems and if it's too high you grind finer and get the same thing. I, too, doubt the new burrs will help, but at least they can't hurt.
Good luck and keeps us informed how it goes. |
_________________
Three Francesconi (CMA) espresso machines - Rossi, San Marco, LaCimbali, Faema and 2 Mazzer Major grinders- CoffeeTech Maggionlino, Hottop, Alpenröst and HW Precision roasters.
This week I are sick and tired of all the snow. 
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kingseven
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Post subject: RE: drippy problems
Posted: Nov 19, 2009 - 08:09 PM
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Joined: Feb 24, 2004
Posts: 2061
Location: London
Status: Offline
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| 16g in 30 seconds - is that per shot or total? Because that is just way too slow for total. I aim for about 60% brew ratio (with 20g I would expect approx 34g liquid total) in 27-30 seconds. Flow rates are a mixture of many things - long preinfusions often result in faster second halves of the pour, where unrestricted machines often seem to slow down in the second half. |
_________________
http://www.jimseven.com
I'll never own too many items with which to enjoy coffee.
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bruceb
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Post subject: RE: drippy problems
Posted: Nov 19, 2009 - 08:26 PM
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Joined: Apr 04, 2004
Posts: 3922
Location: Northern Hesse, Germany
Status: Offline
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| James, does that mean that you think Tom is grinding too fine or something else? |
_________________
Three Francesconi (CMA) espresso machines - Rossi, San Marco, LaCimbali, Faema and 2 Mazzer Major grinders- CoffeeTech Maggionlino, Hottop, Alpenröst and HW Precision roasters.
This week I are sick and tired of all the snow.
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kingseven
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Post subject: RE: drippy problems
Posted: Nov 19, 2009 - 08:47 PM
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Joined: Feb 24, 2004
Posts: 2061
Location: London
Status: Offline
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| I would say either too fine or too much coffee. Too much resistance either way. |
_________________
http://www.jimseven.com
I'll never own too many items with which to enjoy coffee.
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dsc
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Post subject: RE: drippy problems
Posted: Nov 22, 2009 - 09:19 PM
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Joined: Feb 02, 2007
Posts: 1595
Location: Leatherhead, UK / Gdansk, Poland
Status: Offline
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Hi guys,
to clarify a few things:
- 16g is the dose, currently with 16g in a double basket I'm getting around 23g of liquid in the cup which is roughly 60% brew ratio. The thing is I'm currently using a blend with some robusta in it and I think that's what's making it easier to get good results and proper brew ratios. With SOs I stuggle quite a lot.
- if I want more liquid and grind coarser I get quite bad results ie. channelling, early blonding and similar
- I switched to a bigger gicleur (put in the original Elektra gicleur which is 0.9mm) and that seems to work a bit better than a small one
- still with some coffees I get very fast blonding even though the extractions start properly, slow and form a stream/cone. For some reason it all goes sideways after around 15-17s.
- pressure is around 8.5bar measured on the puck (pressure transducer mounted just above the dispersion block)
- I've tried various baskets, singles as well, results are pretty much the same on all of them
- I've tried 3 coffees within the last few days and the results are also quite similar.
Any ideas why the hell the shots go blond even though it all seems to be going well in the beginning?
Regards,
dsc. |
_________________
"This week I are mostly nutating..."
Mahlkonig Guatemala for FP/drip, Elektra T1 + Mazzer Major for espresso and a loving, understanding girlfriend:)
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Ziobeege
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Post subject:
Posted: Nov 22, 2009 - 11:12 PM
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Joined: Aug 18, 2009
Posts: 42
Location: London
Status: Offline
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Thats quite weird.
Your puck seems to be rupturing half way through the extraction process. Given what you have said, logic would tell me that it could be either:
- your puck is not being properly saturated when preinfused, so as the coffee puck swells dry bits remain in the puck as you have overdosed, or that a perfect seal is not being formed as there is not enough water on the bed of the puck when the main pump kicks in
- somehow air being introduced somewhere during the course of the extraction, or preinfusion
- irregular coffee particles, too many/too few fines.
With your new burrs, considering the calibre of your grinder, the last point should be dealt with.
I assume that before these issues reared, you were using the exactly the same technique, tamping, grinding, dosing as you do now? |
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dsc
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Post subject:
Posted: Nov 23, 2009 - 01:09 PM
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Joined: Feb 02, 2007
Posts: 1595
Location: Leatherhead, UK / Gdansk, Poland
Status: Offline
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Hi Ziobeege,
indeed weird. On the Elektra there's no preinfusion, the puck gets hit with 9bar almost straight away, the ramp up lasts only a few seconds. It all starts well if the coffee is fine enough, but that usually produces quite low volumes, close to ristretto/short normal espresso. If I grind coarser I get quite bad sprites from the basket and it goes even worse afterwards.
I will try to give my triple basket a try to get more head space, perhaps there isn't enough water above the puck and that's why it goes terribly wrong.
Regards,
dsc. |
_________________
"This week I are mostly nutating..."
Mahlkonig Guatemala for FP/drip, Elektra T1 + Mazzer Major for espresso and a loving, understanding girlfriend:)
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Ziobeege
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Post subject:
Posted: Nov 23, 2009 - 02:14 PM
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Joined: Aug 18, 2009
Posts: 42
Location: London
Status: Offline
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Ah I didn't realise you had one of thooooose Electras. Nonetheless, the principles should be the same.
I reckon giving more headspace is definately worth a crack. Too little space, or too little headwater, means the puck can't swell as much as it needs to to get the coffee bed properly saturated.
Let us know how you get on. |
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dsc
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Post subject: re
Posted: Dec 10, 2009 - 10:50 PM
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Joined: Feb 02, 2007
Posts: 1595
Location: Leatherhead, UK / Gdansk, Poland
Status: Offline
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Hi guys,
ok here's a vid without nutating motion:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/tompjagiello/4174407617/
and with nutating motion ('sealing' the edge of the puck):
http://www.flickr.com/photos/tompjagiello/4174432977/
you can clearly see the difference.
James I'm guessing you simply tamp straight down on your Synesso right? btw that grinder setting worked for me when doing the nutating motion, without it, it wasn't great.
Regards,
dsc. |
_________________
"This week I are mostly nutating..."
Mahlkonig Guatemala for FP/drip, Elektra T1 + Mazzer Major for espresso and a loving, understanding girlfriend:)
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kingseven
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Post subject: RE: re
Posted: Dec 10, 2009 - 11:33 PM
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Joined: Feb 24, 2004
Posts: 2061
Location: London
Status: Offline
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| I do simply tamp. So perhaps a water dispersion issue? The synesso perhaps more tolerant than the electra? |
_________________
http://www.jimseven.com
I'll never own too many items with which to enjoy coffee.
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dsc
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Post subject: re
Posted: Dec 10, 2009 - 11:38 PM
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Joined: Feb 02, 2007
Posts: 1595
Location: Leatherhead, UK / Gdansk, Poland
Status: Offline
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Hi James,
well when I tried my luck on the Synesso I also only tamped, nothing more.
The dispersion on the Elektra is not too bad, there's a dispersion block behind the screen, which has holes all around it, so it should provide even water dispersion. Heck I've tried the LM screw+shower and it doesn't change much, even more I think it's worse than the original Elektra dispersion.
James can you try 'nutating' on the Synesso and see how it affects the flow? I know it changes quite a lot on the GS3.
Regards,
dsc. |
_________________
"This week I are mostly nutating..."
Mahlkonig Guatemala for FP/drip, Elektra T1 + Mazzer Major for espresso and a loving, understanding girlfriend:)
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kingseven
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Post subject: RE: re
Posted: Dec 11, 2009 - 01:40 AM
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Joined: Feb 24, 2004
Posts: 2061
Location: London
Status: Offline
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| I do it now and again, just cos its fun with no massive obvious influence - but I will do one side by side to check. (Scace arrived today too - thank you!) |
_________________
http://www.jimseven.com
I'll never own too many items with which to enjoy coffee.
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dsc
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Post subject: RE: re
Posted: Dec 11, 2009 - 10:58 PM
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Joined: Feb 02, 2007
Posts: 1595
Location: Leatherhead, UK / Gdansk, Poland
Status: Offline
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Hi James,
glad to hear you got the Scace back, thanks again!
I've burned through the 1kg pack of coffee I got from you and I have no idea what's wrong. I've tried so many things, including nutation and even that sometimes doesn't work well. I'm giving up for now, screw it I've had enough, almost a year of constant problems and I'm seriously tired. Perhaps we can meet sometime and I will bring over my machine, for now I'm turning it off for good. I'm not super happy, but it shouldn't be so damn hard.
Glad to have the Chemex with me to play with...
Regards,
dsc. |
_________________
"This week I are mostly nutating..."
Mahlkonig Guatemala for FP/drip, Elektra T1 + Mazzer Major for espresso and a loving, understanding girlfriend:)
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